How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us? (Messiah, Jesus)
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NOTE TO READERS: Please refer to post #147 in which I stated the following.
''Once having been saved by grace though faith, then the believer should make every effort to pursue spiritual growth which will result in works acceptable to God and which will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ. But the spiritual growth or lack thereof of the believer has no bearing on the fact that he is eternally secure.''
As I stated in that post, legalists do not distinguish between the fact that the unbeliever is eternally saved from the penalty of sin by grace at the very moment they place their faith in Christ, and that as believers they are saved from the power of sin in their life by growing spiritually.
Legalists claim that those who understand that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works as the Scriptures declare, are spiritually lazy.
As well, they treat passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 as being only part of an equation rather than being absolute statements which proclaim that works are not a part of eternal salvation and that such passages therefore cannot be contradicted elsewhere in Scripture. They fail to recognize that Ephesians 2:10 shows that works should result from having been eternally saved but are not a cause of, or a requirement for eternal salvation.
I have refuted Dresden on this subject on my own thread and will not bother with him on this one as I also stated earlier.
Firstly:
I feel I got ignored.
Would any one care to respond to Posts 152 and 155.
There are verses which contradict each other in the New Testament, "Works Needed" vs "Works Not Needed" are but one of many contradictions.
The Epistles and Gospels where written by people not by God herself.
It is by the fruit of there ways that you will know them, any tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore we must do good works to be saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
And as I refuted you on your own thread, your problem is that you do not accept all scripture only that scripture which supports your personal Calvinistic views. You refute the early Christian fathers, the understanding of both Jews and early Christians concerning the "oneness" of faith and works. You refute that serving God is anything more than a "by-the-way."
On the other hand I have constantly stated what you quote is true even if lifted out of context. But when placed in light of all Scripture you must believe ALL scripture. You call the Bible inerrant, but then fill it full of holes with what you refuse to accept or try to explain away. I have no need to do any of that, and the doctrines I believe have not led men to commit atrocities because they felt they were saved regardless of what they had done.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. And you have divided the house you believe in into so many pieces it doesn't even resemble anything someone would desire to live in, let alone be considered the house of God. Your God is there to justify you by faith, but you appear unable to prove your faith by your servanthood, since obeying God doesn't come first, it's merely a speck in on your long distance radar. At least Romans519 admits to having a conscience, having feelings of conviction, and thereby God may still work greatly in his heart, despite the fact that we have disagreement over this particular view.
Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.
And what is love? Keeping God's commandments--
2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
1 John 2:5 But whoso KEEPETH HIS WORD, in him verily is the love of God perfected: HEREBY know we that we are in him.
I John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. HE THAT SAITH, I KNOW HIM, AND KEEPETH NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him.
The unsaved, unregenerate man does not keep God's commandments.
Now your only response to the above must be that God will accept you even if you do not love Him. But if you say you know Him and keep not His commandments, well, then you need to carefully read
I John 2:3-4 again.
Do you keep His commandments or not? Because that is the only way we know you LOVE Him. Or do none of these verses count or do they become subordinate to what you quote?
Yours is a salvation that has no demand for a change in life OR heart. Because a believer is recognized by that change. Even Romans519 recognizes that fact. Obedience is about both real confession of Christ as Lord, real repentance over sins committed, and real proof that both have taken place with a life that comes into line with the commandments of Jesus. I am not proud but humbled to be counted as a legalist in your definition of legalism, if I can live my life daily as such. Because that is the doctrine I believe.
Are you equally humbled to call George Sodini your brother because he accepted YOUR doctrine? Would you be happy to explain to his victims' families that they can be assured that Sodini will get less than the biggest mansion in heaven because he "slipped?"
A change of heart, a change of mindset, a change of life, a perseverance to see the race to the finish---salvation.
That was an over all good post
but I disagree with one bit which is that we must believe the entire Bible is perfect and accept all of it.
It is by the fruit of there ways that you will know them, any tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore we must do good works to be saved.
You miss the context here. Anyone who is born again, which is a result of believing in the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ, bears good fruit. It doesn't happen by their efforts. It is a result of the new heart God gives them. When Jesus said this He was saying a fact. It is a fact that unbelievers do not bear good fruit. It is impossible for an unbeliever to bear a good fruit because until they are born again their soul is still dead. It doesn't matter if an unbeliever gives to charity for example. To God this is pride and self righteousness. I don't care how humble an unbeliever is. You consulted with yourself before doing the good work and it was not a work of the Holy Spirit therefore it is not a good fruit.
I've been waiting for a comment like that.
Finally time for some Contradictions from the man made Bible that you claim is god breathed.
Each set of Contradictions are color coded to make it simple. Enjoy and please by all means attempt to explain it away,
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." - Exodus 20:5
"Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, it does not boast, it is not proud." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." - Deuteronomy 24:16
"Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him." - Psalm 2:12
"Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes--their own teeth will be set on edge."
God is not an author of confusion, and God confused the language at Babel.
"No one can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for them." - Psalm 49:7
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6
James VS Romans, that is Works needed vs Works not Needed.
"God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?" - Numbers 23:19
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1:14
Context. When you see what appears to be contradictions in the bible, and believe them to be so, you will of course recreate the gospel in your mind and worship a false god.
Context. When you see what appears to be contradictions in the bible, and believe them to be so, you will of course recreate the gospel in your mind and worship a false god.
It's not taken out of context.
That's what those scriptures say and they contradict each other.
It can't be helped the Bible isn't perfect only God is perfect and to treat any thing else as perfect is blasphemy.
Well, more and more it appears that for someone to argue with you is akin to arguing with Mother Theresa. And, yes, both the old man and the new pop their heads up within the Christian.
The message of salvation IS very simple, the path however is narrow and demands commitment. This whole thread appears to have be by those who wish to justify Christ without a change or commitment to the lives they lead. I will have to answer to God, and no matter how much "good" I might do, it will never be enough. And no matter how much "faith" I have it will be insufficient in terms of the grace of God. But failure to commit myself to be a SERVANT in virtually all I think or do, regardless of adequacy is the unpardonable sin.
Failure to commit yourself to God is NOT the unpardonable sin. How you came about to that conclusion I do not understand. The unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus Christ as your savior. By doing this you are saying what God did by sending His Son to die for us was an evil thing, thus blaspheming God. You say you will have to answer to God. Jesus said you will not have to.
John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
A changed life is a fruit of being born again, not the root.
You miss the context here. Anyone who is born again, which is a result of believing in the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ, bears good fruit. It doesn't happen by their efforts. It is a result of the new heart God gives them. When Jesus said this He was saying a fact. It is a fact that unbelievers do not bear good fruit. It is impossible for an unbeliever to bear a good fruit because until they are born again their soul is still dead. It doesn't matter if an unbeliever gives to charity for example. To God this is pride and self righteousness. I don't care how humble an unbeliever is. You consulted with yourself before doing the good work and it was not a work of the Holy Spirit therefore it is not a good fruit.
The spirit of God can move any one not just believers.
Disbelief is not a sin but believing in God and rejecting her ways is a sin.
How can you be so closed minded to think all non-believers who do good works do them for selfish reasons?
I know plenty of people who do good for the sake of doing good and no other reason, they do not seek reward, nor do they seek to avoid punishment, they simply do good. Spontaneous acts of kindness are how God uses people and a person doesn't need to be a believer to be used. Some people are used by God each day and they don't even know it or believe in her.
On the other hand many people only convert because they are Bad Cop/Good Cop manipulated into feeling worthless, then in need of salvation. They end up believing in a false doctrine such as Sacrificial Appeasement purely for selfish reasons and nothing more, usually out of fear of what they are told the alternative is.
Where in reality if they where to just confess there sins to the Lord and repent of their wrongs with the intention of improving for the better, if they change and do good works then they are saved.
Because God is the most Merciful entity in existence and would never require blood as appeasement.
Not every one who says to him Lord Lord will see the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of his father who is in heaven.
Gods will is that we submit to her and do the ultimate good work which is choosing to be loving.
I've been waiting for a comment like that.
Finally time for some Contradictions from the man made Bible that you claim is god breathed.
Each set of Contradictions are color coded to make it simple. Enjoy and please by all means attempt to explain it away,
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." - Exodus 20:5
"Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, it does not boast, it is not proud." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
You quoted one of the 10 commandments to try to contradict God when the bible says love is not jealous. Well when God gave the law He was dealing with the world according to the law. How much sense would it make for God to say not to make any idols to worship and then follow by saying He is not a jealous God? God's law is sovereign, and so is His grace. But the bible says believers are not under the law, but under grace. So if the bible says under grace that God's love is not jealous, how is that a contradiction to the sovereignty of God's law when God is just and love? God's law demands of us. God's grace imparts to us. Believers are under His grace.
The spirit of God can move any one not just believers.
Disbelief is not a sin but believing in God and rejecting her ways is a sin.
How can you be so closed minded to think all non-believers who do good works do them for selfish reasons?
I know plenty of people who do good for the sake of doing good and no other reason, they do not seek reward, nor do they seek to avoid punishment, they simply do good. Spontaneous acts of kindness are how God uses people and a person doesn't need to be a believer to be used. Some people are used by God each day and they don't even know it or believe in her.
On the other hand many people only convert because they are Bad Cop/Good Cop manipulated into feeling worthless, then in need of salvation. They end up believing in a false doctrine such as Sacrificial Appeasement purely for selfish reasons and nothing more, usually out of fear of what they are told the alternative is.
Where in reality if they where to just confess there sins to the Lord and repent of their wrongs with the intention of improving for the better, if they change and do good works then they are saved.
Because God is the most Merciful entity in existence and would never require blood as appeasement.
Not every one who says to him Lord Lord will see the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of his father who is in heaven.
Gods will is that we submit to her and do the ultimate good work which is choosing to be loving.
You referring to God as "her" just shows how distant you are from the truth. You've said things that are not supported by scripture such as you believe you have been reincarnated and have memories from past lives. This kind of belief is not the faith of a Christian.
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