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Yet...the scripture tells us that he hates. Weird, huh? We've got 50 pages of people denying the fact of what scripture PLAINLY says.
Honestly...if I said water was wet I'd probably have 40 pages of people telling me I was nuts.
Vizio, you and I do not agree on much--except perhaps this topic. And your last line above is one of the funniest I've read in ages--and so true as well.
While there may be exegetical wiggle room for universalists regarding most scripture, there is none at all, not with the furtherest stretch of the original Greek, with regard to the "unpardonable" sin, instead, universalists must do what I frequently accuse fundamentalists of doing-----use one scripture to trump another.
Now MysticPhd is consistent. If scripture isn't to his liking he cuts it out of the Bible. The only problem is his belief is not Christian, it is something arising from Christianity.
The bare faced truth is that there is much dichotomy in Christianity. When two verses don't equate most people reject one or the other, or trump one with the other. My faith requires reconciliation of the two--that both may be equally true in the whole or only in part. So I have no problem accepting that God hates sin and sinners while, exactly BECAUSE He hates them, He sent His Son to display His grace and mercy for all who would accept it. And yes, there is an acceptance to Jesus in one's life-- as foretold by the story of the Hebrews wandering in the desert. They grumbled against God because of fiery serpents that were biting them. With that sin of lack of faith, Moses raised a snake on a pole so that all who were bitten could look up to it in faith that God would spare them---and He did. (Numbers 21:4-9)
Elder Schuller feels it is not a good practice to inform people that these fiery serpents were a result of God's judgment on the people's bad behavior. This would be injurious to their self-esteem and inflict irreparable damage on their wounded self- esteem.
The more mystical feel the fiery serpents are not reality. "Reality," they suggest, "is found in the inner self." They want to set up seminars to teach people to meditate and to visualize peace in the midst of the camp.
Others, not against the idea of a snake on a pole feel the real issue is a moral issue. Elder Dobson reasons, "We have these snakes because we have lost our moral sense--our Judeo ethic." Rather than focusing on the snake on the pole, Dobson wants to focus on the family.
Some, led by Elder Robertson, feel they need a more conservative leadership that would call the nation back to their Pre-Wilderness morality.
Elder McCartney feels the reason for the fiery serpents is that men aren't doing their spiritual jobs. He wants to form a Covenant Keepers' Movement among the men. The men like this idea because it focuses on them.
Elder Falwell's followers, in his true spirit, want to see tablets of stone, the jar of manna, and Aaron's rod also lifted on poles. They claim Moses is reducing divine revelation to the "snake on the pole."
One group, led by Elder Spong feels the snake on the pole idea is merely Moses' opinion. Any headings that had taken place are readily explained by natural causes. He forms a large group into a Snake Seminar to vote on which words God had actually spoken to Moses.
Elder Graham, an emotional public speaker, starts crusades that decry the horror of the fiery serpents and then invites people to come forward and make a public decision to look at the snake on the pole. As the people contemplate their decision, they sing, "Just as I am without one plea but that the snake was raised for me."
Many who sought faithfully to direct people to the snake on the pole also had their problems and contentions. "Are these snakes a part of the perfect will of God or merely the permissive will of God," they ask. The real issue was why some were willing to look at the snake on the pole and others were not. One element felt it was all predestined. God chooses some to look and others not to look. The other element feels it was up to the person to make a decision to look or not.
A post-liberal group feels their reasoning has advanced beyond that of liberals and conservatives. They simply smile at competing factions. "People, please," they beg, "if a snake on a pole works for some people, why argue? Let them have their snake on a pole. It is their truth, but it should not be imposed upon everyone. Can't we all just get along?"
Meanwhile God says, "You people need more fiery serpents!!!"
And this is the way the thread runs---a non-hateful God adds more fiery serpents as some perish without ever looking toward the cross, uh, the snake on the pole, while others see the beauty that arises from the anguish of the trial of fiery serpents and move on.
Don't be coy, Vizio. You know that the scriptures were interpreted and recorded in ignorance. There are still people today who apparently do not have a clue what the emotion of hate is and how it occurs in humans. They also seem not to want to know and would rather continue to believe that God has this and other human psychological weakness. Those of us who know the source of these human weakness know that God does not have them. Our God is not weak.
And then we have people like you---you seem to like to use the scriptures when it suits you. You love to talk about the odd verse here and there, but when the rubber meets the road, you only believe what you want to believe.
I have no idea how you can claim to believe in a religion when you pick and choose what to believe of it.
And then we have people like you---you seem to like to use the scriptures when it suits you. You love to talk about the odd verse here and there, but when the rubber meets the road, you only believe what you want to believe.
I have no idea how you can claim to believe in a religion when you pick and choose what to believe of it.
Really? You think the bible is a Christian book? All 66 books - some kind of "How To be a Christian Guide"?
Don't be coy, Vizio. You know that the scriptures were interpreted and recorded in ignorance. There are still people today who apparently do not have a clue what the emotion of hate is and how it occurs in humans. They also seem not to want to know and would rather continue to believe that God has this and other human psychological weakness. Those of us who know the source of these human weakness know that God does not have them. Our God is not weak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
And then we have people like you---you seem to like to use the scriptures when it suits you. You love to talk about the odd verse here and there, but when the rubber meets the road, you only believe what you want to believe.
I have no idea how you can claim to believe in a religion when you pick and choose what to believe of it.
I use the scriptures intelligently, Vizio . . . not blindly. I use far more than a verse here and there. The difference is that everything I use is completely compatible with the Spirit of agape love . . . who IS God. The problem I see is that you seem to believe in a religion and I believe in Christ.
"While there may be exegetical wiggle room for universalists regarding most
scripture, there is none at all, not with the furtherest stretch of the original
Greek, with regard to the "unpardonable" sin, instead, universalists must do
what I frequently accuse fundamentalists of doing-----use one scripture to trump
another"
The issue with the "unpardonable sin" is not complicated to understand. Are there any parents in here? Suppose you have a teenage child who disobeys for some reason and they come to you asking for forgiveness. You agree. You forgive them.
Then suppose, for example, you have told your teenage child that they are not allowed to go to some party and then they go anyway, against your instructions. You say that the consequences are that they are grounded for a week or whatever. They come to you asking for forgiveness when you indicate that they will have to suffer the consequences for disobeying. They really want to go to some game that they have been looking forward to for a year, and you know how much they have been looking forward to this. "Please mom, dad, can I have one more chance?"
Do you forgive them or do they suffer the consequences for disobeying? If you don't forgive them, they must suffer the consequences. After the week of grounding is past, it is over. Same thing with those who suffer the consequences of the unpardonable sin. After the consequences for not believing are done, it's over. They do not suffer forever and ever. There are limits to the punishments and corrections of God.
Do you want to know what love does? Please refer to 1 Cor. 13
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. ]3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body 2to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 2provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 ]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.
It is not hate that remains. It is love. God is love and He is perfect love. Love is always thereno matter what the disobedient child does.It does not stop loving.
Love bears all things, endures all things, and it never fails. That is who God is. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-29-2014 at 01:25 PM..
I use the scriptures intelligently, Vizio . . . not blindly. I use far more than a verse here and there. The difference is that everything I use is completely compatible with the Spirit of agape love . . . who IS God. The problem I see is that you seem to believe in a religion and I believe in Christ.
Again...you use your version of what you read. How do you know what is "intelligent use" and what isn't?
I use the scriptures intelligently, Vizio . . . not blindly. I use far more than a verse here and there. The difference is that everything I use is completely compatible with the Spirit of agape love . . . who IS God. The problem I see is that you seem to believe in a religion and I believe in Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Again...you use your version of what you read. How do you know what is "intelligent use" and what isn't?
I use the version that is consistent with God who IS agape love, Vizio. Knowing what hate IS and why God cannot possibly hate is just one instance of the intelligent reading of scripture using the Spirit of agape love . . . who IS God.
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