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IT is a mystery how such obvious human fallibility and corruption could be so revered and believed as the infallible word of God. It boggles the mind. Why it persists is a testament to the inertia of human superstition and fear.
You guys keep claiming the Bible has been altered. What proof do you have of that?
What are you basing that on? How is it fallible or corrupt?
This is offensive to me. Not because of the claim, but because you are claiming these things so boldly with absolutely no evidence.
The Bible can stand it's ground against any claim you make against it. But not against baseless claims that have no substance behind them.
Excellent points. Almost all fundamentalists quote Paul to the exclusion of Jesus. And when Jesus and Paul contradict one another an "explanation" is arrived at which in EVERY case removes the message of Jesus and glorifies Paul.
Fundamentalist religion is not Christianity as from Christ, but Pauline Christianity, one that does lip service to Jesus and avoids the demands He made on His followers.
The entire inerrancy thing so alive and well among fundamentalists arose in the latter part of the nineteenth century and received its first formulaic principles around 1920. While literalists abounded for centuries, they were in no way inerrantists.
Said before and now repeated here, inerrancy is not simply a claim about the nature of the Bible, but also a claim about our access to it — our ability to read the inerrant Bible inerrantly. Because if a fundamentalist can't read it inerrantly, then it means some crazy liberal might be, God forbid, CORRECT in his interpretation.
The teachings of Paul and of Jesus do not contradict at all.
People tend to use the so called "teachings of Paul" because they elaborate on what Jesus said. When it gets into discussion of finer points, Paul has written much and the letters are much more technical.
You can take any "teaching of Paul" and confirm it against what Jesus has said.
Jesus himself didn't write any of the Bible by his own hand, but instead used the hands of men to write the Bible for Him
IT is a mystery how such obvious human fallibility and corruption could be so revered and believed as the infallible word of God. It boggles the mind. Why it persists is a testament to the inertia of human superstition and fear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john233
You guys keep claiming the Bible has been altered. What proof do you have of that?
What are you basing that on? How is it fallible or corrupt?
This is offensive to me. Not because of the claim, but because you are claiming these things so boldly with absolutely no evidence.
The Bible can stand it's ground against any claim you make against it. But not against baseless claims that have no substance behind them.
That you do not know the evidence suggests that you have no knowledge whatsoever of current Bible scholarship. The most egregious contradictions involve trying to reconcile the God of love revealed by Christ and the savage and barbaric descriptions of God in the OT. The apologetic and frenetic convolutions employed to try to merge these two views of the true nature of God are patently absurd. When the OT view is imposed on the Gospels horrid distortions and corruptions of Christ's Gospel are the result.
That you do not know the evidence suggests that you have no knowledge whatsoever of current Bible scholarship. The most egregious contradictions involve trying to reconcile the God of love revealed by Christ and the savage and barbaric descriptions of God in the OT. The apologetic and frenetic convolutions employed to try to merge these two views of the true nature of God are patently absurd. When the OT view is imposed on the Gospels horrid distortions and corruptions of Christ's Gospel are the result.
And what would you do if you had millions of wicked, godless people who were killing each other all the time and engaging in every form of perversion and worshipping Satan, sacrificing children to Molech, Chiun, Baal etc.
What would you do if every person you sent to tell them a better way to live were rejected and murdered?
God manifested visible signs to these people in many ways to show them He was God. Yet even that was not enough to convince them to turn from their faithless God hating selfish ways.
Just watch Jerry Springer for an hour, then try to see the world from God's perspective for once. He not only sees the our actions but our thoughts as well. We are blessed He doesn't scrap all creation out of righteous anger.
Your definition of pure agape love is flawed. God is not bound by your perspective of morality.
He made His creation to fulfill His purposes. Why should He allow imperfection and evil to exist within it forever? Do you not realize that if you love children, you hate things that harm children. If you love peace, you hate war and discord, if you love good you hate evil, if you love respect you hate disrespect, if you love truth you hate lies.
He gave every single person the gift of life and has allowed us to live the life we want to live. To experience the beauty and complexity of life, the joys and sorrows, ups and downs. How we choose to live is up to us.
He gives blessings to both the wicked and the righteous.
All men are just flesh. We do not possess immortal life apart from Christ. From the earth we came, to the earth we return. He could have made us all immortal, but He will not tolerate our nonsense to continue through all eternity within His kingdom.
Christ came to show us how we are supposed to live and who we are to become and reveal to us the character of God. But the OT also shows us the character of God, they do not contradict each other.
Only those who love God and His perfect and good ways, who turn from the wickedness of this world / perversions of our minds, who believe in His Son will be granted eternal life. By being born of the Spirit, which is imperishable, being adopted as children.
He gives us the power to overcome through the Holy Spirit.
God could have created us to all be robots, who can only do and understand what we are programmed to. But we would not be capable of true love. Just the appearance of love. God is much greater than to settle for the appearance of Love.
Would you consider it barbaric and savage to convict murderers and sentence them with the death penalty?
Yet you don't think God is just for doing the same thing? God has a specific plan for humanity, a plan which will ultimately bring about His desired purposes. God is good, you don't think He considered the cost of doing what He wanted to do before He started?
All you seem to think is important is prosperity and comfort on this earth. This earth is just the place where He is raising His children
That you do not know the evidence suggests that you have no knowledge whatsoever of current Bible scholarship. The most egregious contradictions involve trying to reconcile the God of love revealed by Christ and the savage and barbaric descriptions of God in the OT. The apologetic and frenetic convolutions employed to try to merge these two views of the true nature of God are patently absurd. When the OT view is imposed on the Gospels horrid distortions and corruptions of Christ's Gospel are the result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john233
And what would you do if you had millions of wicked, godless people who were killing each other all the time and engaging in every form of perversion and worshipping Satan, sacrificing children to Molech, Chiun, Baal etc.
What would you do if every person you sent to tell them a better way to live were rejected and murdered?
God manifested visible signs to these people in many ways to show them He was God. Yet even that was not enough to convince them to turn from their faithless God hating selfish ways.
Just watch Jerry Springer for an hour, then try to see the world from God's perspective for once. He not only sees the our actions but our thoughts as well. We are blessed He doesn't scrap all creation out of righteous anger.
Your definition of pure agape love is flawed. God is not bound by your perspective of morality.
He made His creation to fulfill His purposes. Why should He allow imperfection and evil to exist within it forever? Do you not realize that if you love children, you hate things that harm children. If you love peace, you hate war and discord, if you love good you hate evil, if you love respectfulness you hate disrespect, if you love truth you hate lies.
He gave every single person the gift of life and has allowed us to live the life we want to live. To experience the beauty and complexity of life, the joys and sorrows, ups and downs. How we choose to live is up to us.
He gives blessings to both the wicked and the righteous.
All men are just flesh. We do not possess immortal life apart from Christ. From the earth we came, to the earth we return. He could have made us all immortal, but He will not tolerate our nonsense to continue through all eternity within His kingdom.
Only those who love God and His perfect and good ways, who turn from the wickedness of this world, who believe in His Son will be granted eternal life. By being born of the Spirit, which is imperishable, being adopted as children.
God could have created us to all by robots, who can only do and understand what is right. But we would not be capable of true love. Just the appearance of love. God is much greater than to settle for the appearance of Love.
Would you consider it barbaric and savage to convict murderers and sentence them with the death penalty?
Yet you don't think God is just for doing the same thing? God has a specific plan for humanity, a plan which will ultimately bring about His desired purposes. God is good, you don't think He considered the cost of doing what He wanted to do before He started?
All you seem to think is important is prosperity and comfort on this earth. This earth is just the place where He is raising His children
::Sigh:: There is no reasoning with unreasoning credulity and a refusal to deal in facts . . . NOT fiction, ancient ignorance and superstition.
The teachings of Paul and of Jesus do not contradict at all.
People tend to use the so called "teachings of Paul" because they elaborate on what Jesus said. When it gets into discussion of finer points, Paul has written much and the letters are much more technical.
You can take any "teaching of Paul" and confirm it against what Jesus has said.
Jesus himself didn't write any of the Bible by his own hand, but instead used the hands of men to write the Bible for Him
I'm not going to do the work you should be doing for yourself, but why don't you try googling "the teachings of Jesus versus the teachings of Paul," and find out for yourself? Then you can spend a whole lot of time creating another gospel or letter that conflates the different teachings of the two. That is what people have done for decades. And the reason for that is they cannot understand that different books/letters written by different authors, most of whom were unaware of the writings of others, living in different areas (remember, a hundred miles was akin to the other side of the world), and perhaps in different social settings couldn't possibly "harmonize" their thoughts.
That's why we have two different nativity stories. That's why Paul would teach to pray for your enemies in order "to heap burning coals" on their head, and Jesus taught that we do good for our enemies in the same manner that we do good for our own families--in their best interests. That's why Paul can teach about faith only and John can write about "I will show my faith WITH my works."
The very fact that the letters of Paul conflict within the same writing shows that others have tampered with the original writing. Why would Paul write in Corinthians 11 that women may prophesy as long as their heads are covered. Who are those women speaking to? In Chapter 12 Paul lists prophecy as one of the gifts of the Spirit and in Chapter 14 he describes what he means as "Everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort....He who prophesies edifies the church."
Women were speaking in the church already. There would be no need to tell them they needed to cover their heads if they were prophesying in private.
Then in 14:34 Paul REVERSES himself and says "Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience---."
In three short chapters Paul REVERSED what he already said was acceptable if a head covering was used (a culturally acceptable dress of the time) and then told them to shut up???? Or is it more likely that a scribe came along who viewed women with less liberality than Paul and ADDED verses 34-35. If one reads that chapter without those two verses it is a unified whole, and does not appear dopeheaded on the part of Paul.
And that is why biblical reading can only be done by understanding context--literally understanding the purposes for which something was written, and culturally why a copyist might have decided to embellish the original writing. Paul's idea of spirituality and that of James are quite different and served different purposes. James, as the brother of Jesus (or his follower who wrote for him) was familiar with the actual teaching of Jesus in a way that Paul had no clue about. On the other hand, Paul knew what could be sold most easily ----"Therefore what you worship in ignorance (this unknown God) this I proclaim to you."
God certainly inspired men to write about Jesus. But Jesus didn't stand over them whispering in their ears. The divergences, discrepancies, contradictions with too many alternative ways of looking at the same issue from the SAME verses of Scripture, alternatives that often conflict with one another, means the bible is not a unity but a massive plurality. People wrote it, most certainly. Inspired people. Kind of like when you hear a really good message from the pulpit or a wonderful gospel song that lifts your spirit. Those authors were inspired in the same fashion that your pastor or the singer was inspired. But they were not inspired in the same sense that God somehow guided them to write each word they wrote. If He did, then God is one mixed up Creator, unable to provide any really important message to us.
The teachings of Paul and of Jesus do not contradict at all.
People tend to use the so called "teachings of Paul" because they elaborate on what Jesus said. When it gets into discussion of finer points, Paul has written much and the letters are much more technical.
You can take any "teaching of Paul" and confirm it against what Jesus has said.
Jesus himself didn't write any of the Bible by his own hand, but instead used the hands of men to write the Bible for Him
An excellent post. We need to take all passages of scripture for what they are. As said in 2Tim. 3:[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I'm not going to do the work you should be doing for yourself, but why don't you try googling "the teachings of Jesus versus the teachings of Paul," and find out for yourself? Then you can spend a whole lot of time creating another gospel or letter that conflates the different teachings of the two. That is what people have done for decades. And the reason for that is they cannot understand that different books/letters written by different authors, most of whom were unaware of the writings of others, living in different areas (remember, a hundred miles was akin to the other side of the world), and perhaps in different social settings couldn't possibly "harmonize" their thoughts.
That's why we have two different nativity stories. That's why Paul would teach to pray for your enemies in order "to heap burning coals" on their head, and Jesus taught that we do good for our enemies in the same manner that we do good for our own families--in their best interests. That's why Paul can teach about faith only and John can write about "I will show my faith WITH my works."
The very fact that the letters of Paul conflict within the same writing shows that others have tampered with the original writing. Why would Paul write in Corinthians 11 that women may prophesy as long as their heads are covered. Who are those women speaking to? In Chapter 12 Paul lists prophecy as one of the gifts of the Spirit and in Chapter 14 he describes what he means as "Everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort....He who prophesies edifies the church."
Women were speaking in the church already. There would be no need to tell them they needed to cover their heads if they were prophesying in private.
Then in 14:34 Paul REVERSES himself and says "Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience---."
In three short chapters Paul REVERSED what he already said was acceptable if a head covering was used (a culturally acceptable dress of the time) and then told them to shut up???? Or is it more likely that a scribe came along who viewed women with less liberality than Paul and ADDED verses 34-35. If one reads that chapter without those two verses it is a unified whole, and does not appear dopeheaded on the part of Paul.
And that is why biblical reading can only be done by understanding context--literally understanding the purposes for which something was written, and culturally why a copyist might have decided to embellish the original writing. Paul's idea of spirituality and that of James are quite different and served different purposes. James, as the brother of Jesus (or his follower who wrote for him) was familiar with the actual teaching of Jesus in a way that Paul had no clue about. On the other hand, Paul knew what could be sold most easily ----"Therefore what you worship in ignorance (this unknown God) this I proclaim to you."
God certainly inspired men to write about Jesus. But Jesus didn't stand over them whispering in their ears. The divergences, discrepancies, contradictions with too many alternative ways of looking at the same issue from the SAME verses of Scripture, alternatives that often conflict with one another, means the bible is not a unity but a massive plurality. People wrote it, most certainly. Inspired people. Kind of like when you hear a really good message from the pulpit or a wonderful gospel song that lifts your spirit. Those authors were inspired in the same fashion that your pastor or the singer was inspired. But they were not inspired in the same sense that God somehow guided them to write each word they wrote. If He did, then God is one mixed up Creator, unable to provide any really important message to us.
And if that is not enough to convince someone of what we mean when we say the BIBLE is not "God-breathed and infallible", then I don't think any further elaboration will help. Great post!
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