Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This has been a rather lengthy thread and perhaps a summation of what has been presented in the previous pages might be a good idea. Let me play the devil's advocate and go along with the notion that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah WAS actually a literal event ...which I don't believe, but anyway ...WHY was Sodom (and Gomorrah and the other cities of the plain) destroyed through the actions of a wrathful God? Why WAS God SO angry that He needed to resort to the destruction of these cities and their inhabitants that included men, women, children, babies, animals and plant-life? Because of men who practiced homosexuality? Most mainstream Christians actually believe that nonsense?? Unbelievably, yes they do!
Even though the explanation regarding the destruction of these cities is given in Ezekiel 16:49-50 (below) the majority of Christians, it would seem, conveniently ignore Ezekiel's explanation. The reason being is that Ezekiel says NOTHING about homosexuality. NOR does Jesus in HIS reference to Sodom in Luke 10:1-12 (below). You see, not only is the story of S&G likely a myth. That these cities were destroyed because of rampant homosexuality is DEFINITELY a myth that is perpetuated by the mainstream Christian Church to this very day! And, this myth has to be upheld at all costs since the reputation of 'the Church' is at stake! This is why we see such as BaptistFundie and others digging in their heels in order to affirm the credibility of their church. Even though I believe that, deep down, they KNOW they are wrong! You see, "We were wrong" is not a term in their vocabulary. And, as I say, for obvious reasons. 'The Church' cannot be seen as being wrong. They would likely lose thousands of tithe-payers.
Here is Ezekiel 16:49-50 (KJV):
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Here is Luke 10:1-12 (KJV)
After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
NOW, if we had none other than these two passages of scripture where Ezekiel is CLEAR as to the 'whys' concerning the destruction of S&G and the equating of the destruction of Sodom by Jesus as being 'inhospitality' (i.e. unwelcoming to strangers) 'homosexuality' would never even enter one's head. However, other than some rather ambiguous passage of scripture in Jude (which does not at all tally with these other texts!) these Ezekiel and Luke passages ARE all we have pertaining to the destruction of S&G and are really all we need! SO, why is Ezekiel and the text from Jesus all but ignored while Jude is the scripture that is highlighted? Well, as said, Jude 'appears' to support the myth that S&G were destroyed because of rampant homosexuality. Jude DOES NOT say this, of course, but the popular myth about homosexuality has to be preserved and upheld at all costs! 'The Church' cannot be seen as being wrong!
"But, but," some may say, "Ezekiel refers to 'abominations' in his explanation and we all know from Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 what 'abominations' refer to ...and that's homosexuality!" Do we? Well, if anything Ezekiel's explanation of 'abominations' in Ezekiel 8 let us us know (again CLEARLY) what the term 'abomination' in the Leviticus texts are likely referring to. I wasn't going to present Ezekiel 8 in its entirety because of its length but I will to make sure everyone has the opportunity to read it' Here it is:
In the sixth year, in the sixth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I sat in my house, with the elders of Judah sitting before me, the hand of the Lord God fell upon me there.
2 Then I looked, and behold, a form that had the appearance of a man.[a] Below what appeared to be his waist was fire, and above his waist was something like the appearance of brightness, like gleaming metal.
3 He put out the form of a hand and took me by a lock of my head, and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the gateway of the inner court that faces north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy.
4 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the vision that I saw in the valley.
5 Then he said to me, “Son of man, lift up your eyes now toward the north.” So I lifted up my eyes toward the north, and behold, north of the altar gate, in the entrance, was this image of jealousy.
6 And he said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel are committing here, to drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see still greater abominations.”
7 And he brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, there was a hole in the wall.
8 Then he said to me, “Son of man, dig in the wall.” So I dug in the wall, and behold, there was an entrance.
9 And he said to me, “Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here.”
10 So I went in and saw. And there, engraved on the wall all around, was every form of creeping things and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel.
11 And before them stood seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up.
12 Then he said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, ‘The Lord does not see us, the Lord has forsaken the land.’”
13 He said also to me, “You will see still greater abominations that they commit.”
14 Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then he said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? You will see still greater abominations than these.”
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord. And behold, at the entrance of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east.
17 Then he said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations that they commit here, that they should fill the land with violence and provoke me still further to anger? Behold, they put the branch to their[c] nose.
18 Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.”
SO, were the cities of the plain involved in pagan worship practices that also led to upsetting God? According to Ezekiel's description of 'abomination/s' ...perhaps so. Ezekiel also helps us to perhaps understand the Leviticus texts that refer to 'abomination/s' better than we've manage to do thus far. Be that as it may, if 'homosexuality per se' played any part in the destruction of S&G WE ARE NOT TOLD THIS ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE!
Rom., I'm just going to be honest with you about this subject. I don't know where you stand on the scripture whether you believe it or not, but that doesn't matter right now.
My purpose is to show you how God feels about sin, certain types of sin that may surprise you.
The greatest sin a person can commit is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, this sin is eternal separation from God, period. This is God's #1 sin held against man. This sin has nothing to do with our conversation.
That brings us to God's #2 sin held against man, it is various sex crimes, not just sodomy.
Now you can reject this, you can say I don't believe this, but I'm showing from God's word exactly what He placed in His law to Israel. Thank God the punishment for these crimes are no longer a physical death, we now have a New Covenant from Christ that gives mercy and forgiveness for these crimes if we accept and believe Him. But nevertheless this is God's hatred for such sins.
Lev. 20:10-16
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
What is in bold is the reason God did this, "that no wickedness be among you." These are sins that God will not tolerate at all in the past under the law. Now, He hates these sins just the same, but what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross has granted mercy to man who does such things.
Where in the past it was immediate death, now God suffers long with man in mercy if you will accept Christ.
This is from God's view not mine, as I have said before, I am to love everyone and be honest with man, but the Creator of all things has the power and the ability to judge such things as He sees fit.
Rom., I'm just going to be honest with you about this subject. I don't know where you stand on the scripture whether you believe it or not, but that doesn't matter right now.
My purpose is to show you how God feels about sin, certain types of sin that may surprise you.
I love surprises ...I hope it's a pleasant one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
The greatest sin a person can commit is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, this sin is eternal separation from God, period. This is God's #1 sin held against man. This sin has nothing to do with our conversation.
So why bring it up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
That brings us to God's #2 sin held against man, it is various sex crimes, not just sodomy.
Now you can reject this, you can say I don't believe this, but I'm showing from God's word exactly what He placed in His law to Israel. Thank God the punishment for these crimes are no longer a physical death, we now have a New Covenant from Christ that gives mercy and forgiveness for these crimes if we accept and believe Him. But nevertheless this is God's hatred for such sins.
Lev. 20:10-16
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
What is in bold is the reason God did this, "that no wickedness be among you." These are sins that God will not tolerate at all in the past under the law. Now, He hates these sins just the same, but what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross has granted mercy to man who does such things.
Where in the past it was immediate death, now God suffers long with man in mercy if you will accept Christ.
This is from God's view not mine, as I have said before, I am to love everyone and be honest with man, but the Creator of all things has the power and the ability to judge such things as He sees fit.
Do you honor all of the 613 commands found in the Torah, Charlie? Unless you do all of the above - and much more - that you're expecting others to follow is meaningless diatribe.
Are you 'righteous', Charlie, i.e. found without sin? Unless you are then you have no business spouting 'righteousness' to any one else. The Bible definition of 'wicked' that you actually bolded applies to you.
Would you call yourself a hypocrite, Charlie? Many of us are hypocrites, including myself, and it's because I recognize this trait in myself that finger-pointing has become something that I'm not to do, even though I do catch myself doing this at times.
You claim to be 'different' from other Christians but you're not. Just like many of them you use the words from a book to condemn others while under the pretext of 'loving' them.
Do you honor all of the 613 commands found in the Torah, Charlie? Unless you do all of the above - and much more - that you're expecting others to follow is meaningless diatribe.
Are you 'righteous', Charlie, i.e. found without sin? Unless you are then you have no business spouting 'righteousness' to any one else. The Bible definition of 'wicked' that you actually bolded applies to you.
Would you call yourself a hypocrite, Charlie? Many of us are hypocrites, including myself, and it's because I recognize this trait in myself that finger-pointing has become something that I'm not to do, even though I do catch myself doing this at times.
You claim to be 'different' from other Christians but you're not. Just like many of them you use the words from a book to condemn others while under the pretext of 'loving' them.
After reading this I went to get my pistol, and lucky for me it wasn't loaded.
it gave me time, while I was loading up, to come to my senses.
After reading this I went to get my pistol, and lucky for me it wasn't loaded.
it gave me time, while I was loading up, to come to my senses.
I'm not completely worthless!
Your love of God is genuine and sincere, Charlie, and I believe you want to follow His wishes. The problem is you are using the wrong measuring stick. God IS agape love. It is not one of His attributes. It is who He IS.
Agape love IS kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, and it is non-judgmental.
When ANYTHING in your interpretation of scripture causes you NOT to exhibit these fruits of His Holy Spirit as described, revealed, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus, you are NOT following God's wishes and are ignoring Jesus's instructions to love God and each other every day and repent when you don't. Corrupting His wishes about agape love with the human concern about sins or justice is evil.
We are responsible for OUR OWN diligence in following God's wishes, NOT judging others. We are NOT the deciders or dispensers of God's justice, Charlie. God IS. We decide and dispense human justice (and we do so very badly). We are even worse at trying to dispense God's justice, so stay out of any concern about God's justice and let your sincere love come through uncorrupted.
Your love of God is genuine and sincere, Charlie, and I believe you want to follow His wishes. The problem is you are using the wrong measuring stick. God IS agape love. It is not one of His attributes. It is who He IS.
Agape love IS kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, and it is non-judgmental.
When ANYTHING in your interpretation of scripture causes you NOT to exhibit these fruits of His Holy Spirit as described, revealed, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus, you are NOT following God's wishes and are ignoring Jesus's instructions to love God and each other every day and repent when you don't. Corrupting His wishes about agape love with the human concern about sins or justice is evil.
We are responsible for OUR OWN diligence in following God's wishes, NOT judging others. We are NOT the deciders or dispensers of God's justice, Charlie. God IS. We decide and dispense human justice (and we do so very badly). We are even worse at trying to dispense God's justice, so stay out of any concern about God's justice and let your sincere love come through uncorrupted.
Sounds all nice and cozy when you ignore the Word of God plainly written.
Was Paul judging others when he told the truth of this matter?
Would you have explained to him the agape love of God when he wrote that?
If you had, you would have been put in your place at the snap of a finger!
I'll not stand before Christ at the judgment seat and be asked why I pointed His Word to this group and not that group.
I'll not hear Him ask me was it because I was afraid of the crowd or was I ashamed of His Word!
Jude says in his epistle that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was (as with the angels that sinned - see Gen 6:1-4), going after strange flesh and fornication. Fornication and going after strange flesh are metaphors. He's talking about false teachers. They turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
If we're in Christ, we're dead to the law that we might be married to Another (Romans 7:4) - a woman with a husband is bound to him as long as he lives. But if he's dead, she not an adulteress if she's married to another. Likewise, we were once married to the law (the law of sin and death), but now we're married to Jesus Christ. Going after strange flesh would be to go after the law. It is to go a whoring after other gods (Judges 2:17), to worship the works of your own hands, which is idolatry, (Isaiah 2:8) and not the living God. It's a metaphor for those who preach salvation by works. These turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, deny Christ, and commit spiritual fornication. They go after strange flesh.
It is written, that a man shall not lie with mankind as with a woman: both have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death. Likewise, spiritual sodomy is a ministry of death - because the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life (2 Cor 3:6). Those who are unbelieving with a defiled conscience and mind are abominable and disobedient (Titus 1:15-16). Note also that they are defiled. Homosexuals are called, "them that defile themselves with mankind" (1 Tim 1:10).
Lot (whom Peter tells us under inspiration was a just man - i.e., elect - see 2 Pet 2:7) is an example of a compromising Christian. Case in point, he calls them men of Sodom "brethren" and offers them his daughters (Gen 19:7-8). Sodom here is a type of false religion. It describes false Christians, and Lot is like the remnant. Romans 9:29: "And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."
To those who are justified by law, they must keep the whole law. If any man keeps the whole law, and yet offends at one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:10). Those who judge by law condemn themselves (Romans 2:1-3).
Jude says in his epistle that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was (as with the angels that sinned - see Gen 6:1-4), going after strange flesh and fornication. Fornication and going after strange flesh are metaphors. He's talking about false teachers. They turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
If we're in Christ, we're dead to the law that we might be married to Another (Romans 7:4) - a woman with a husband is bound to him as long as he lives. But if he's dead, she not an adulteress if she's married to another. Likewise, we were once married to the law (the law of sin and death), but now we're married to Jesus Christ. Going after strange flesh would be to go after the law. It is to go a whoring after other gods (Judges 2:17), to worship the works of your own hands, which is idolatry, (Isaiah 2:8) and not the living God. It's a metaphor for those who preach salvation by works. These turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, deny Christ, and commit spiritual fornication. They go after strange flesh.
It is written, that a man shall not lie with mankind as with a woman: both have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death. Likewise, spiritual sodomy is a ministry of death - because the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life (2 Cor 3:6). Those who are unbelieving with a defiled conscience and mind are abominable and disobedient (Titus 1:15-16). Note also that they are defiled. Homosexuals are called, "them that defile themselves with mankind" (1 Tim 1:10).
Lot (whom Peter tells us under inspiration was a just man - i.e., elect - see 2 Pet 2:7) is an example of a compromising Christian. Case in point, he calls them men of Sodom "brethren" and offers them his daughters (Gen 19:7-8). Sodom here is a type of false religion. It describes false Christians, and Lot is like the remnant. Romans 9:29: "And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."
To those who are justified by law, they must keep the whole law. If any man keeps the whole law, and yet offends at one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:10). Those who judge by law condemn themselves (Romans 2:1-3).
I agree it’s a metaphor
And we need to get the timing right
Romans pertains to the law - and was instituted because of apostasy/heresy
At the 1500’s there was a release from that law
The church is feminine in nature, the house formed/created is led by the man/priest/shepherd -
That is the meaning of man/woman in Scripture - not literal individuals, it is about the meaning of the type/symbol the ordination of the priest who is the head of the religious “household”
Leviticus and Romans are both written to the priests (men)
There are many natural sciences which have come about by inspiration, the problem happens by not correctly identifying things and keeping separate the flesh and the spirit, the building up of the church and the building up of the society
The church is to just stick to their local congregation in peace, harmony with God and neighbour chaste/pure, and not get caught up in all the denominational fighting, the building up of the empires - the sun, moon, stars etc of the old heavens and earth
Those denominational boundaries and their strange theological, philosophical, religious things - the middle layer which says it is religious but clings to natural things are of the earthly/flesh which are not eternal, they are the “elements” that will be assigned to destruction
Last edited by Meerkat2; 02-01-2021 at 12:24 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
