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A theological treatment of the subject must consider the close association of idolatry with sexual immorality and greed ...At root, the problem with humans is not horizontal ‘social’ problems (like sexual immorality and greed), but rebellion against and replacement of the true and living God with gods that fail (which leads to these destructive sins). If the story of the human race is a sorry tale of different forms of idolatry, the height of human folly, the good news is that God reconciles his image-bearers back to himself in Christ.
No it doesn't. The passage is absolutely no ways even implies that the same sex activity was ONLY part of a pagan ritual. It clear as crystal day says that it is UNNATURAL and a sign of people completely lost in their own sinful lusts.
Actually, it does but you will have to get up from that couch, instead of laying there in denial.
What I'm saying, several things actually, is that it was man or men who wrote the Bible and not God. Whether these men were the mouth-piece for God is no more than conjecture ...something absolutely disprovable. Who knows? Maybe they were. I don't know. Anyway, it's because we must not disregard the human element here that 'homosexuality' as we know it today through medical science (which does not depend on fanciful opinions but facts) would have been unknown to these ancient authors. Let's be reasonable ...how could they have known?
So, any two men being intimate with each other would no doubt have astounded 'the ancients'. Probably so too a male and female if in public. However, we are not given any examples of 'men having sex with men' within a public setting, are we? So, how could they have known who might be having sex with whom? Well, actually we are given examples, even if clouded in ambiguity ...men performing sexual rituals with male temple prostitutes. These were, evidently, public exhibitions - or, otherwise made known to the Bible writers that they were going on within pagan temples - and not practices that were confined to one's private quarters of which they would not have known.
Also, the God of the Old Testament absolutely abhors the worship of anything other than Himself, hence the use of the term 'abomination' which, within the context of the so-called 'clobber texts', means 'affiliated with idolatry'. I always recommend that one reads between the lines, especially when it comes to written scripture. Even if 'homosexuality per se' would have had the Bible writers scratching their heads in their ignorance of human sexuality, the actual ACTS of homosexuality that the Bible references are undoubtedly related to pagan idolatry practices.
You can be sure that much study went into my particular evaluations of the Bible 'clobber texts' before I came to my eventual conclusions. My own personal views on homosexuality and gay marriage are just something that washes over me and doesn't affect me or my life one way or the other. I DO jump to the defense of gay people though when I see them being maligned and vilified by some Christian groups. It's then that I defend them with scripture rather than condemn them with scripture.
By the way, thanks for having asked these questions in a reasonable tone.
Thank you for your very detailed and reasoned response. My belief is that the Bible was inspired by the Spirit of God.
I haven’t done any study on the “history” of homosexuality, but I don’t believe (my opinion of course) that it’s anything new or recent. I would imagine it’s existed as long as man has.
Today we seem more open to it, and it’s out in the open more, at least in most places around the world. I’m not sure how the “ancients” would have viewed it, favorably, negatively or just neutral. I don’t suppose they we doing anything in public, but I’m sure people knew what was going on, depending on the openness of the society at that time. I’m reasonably sure men and women weren’t having sex in public, but everyone knew it was going on. Could the same be said for homosexuality? I don’t know.
Funny, I never heard the term “clobber scripture” before. There’s a scripture in 1 Tim 3:2 that says a leader must be the husband of one wife to serve. The Assembly of God church used to interpret this to mean a leader could never have been divorced. I’ve heard others interpret this in the context of the pagan temple prostitutes. Men couldn’t be married and going to the temple prostitutes. While I believe the scripture was inspired by God, often man’s interpretation isn’t.
I don’t claim to know everything, no one does. We (I at least) go by studying, prayer and meditation to understand the scripture. I like to look into the Greek and Hebrew meanings. I think you have to to really understand what’s being said. The issue that makes people part ways is the belief of the Bible’s infallibility. I can see from some posts that there are people here that don’t believe the Bible is truth. Others do. I don’t think those two positions can be reconciled and that’s where the arguments start.
According to Amazon, my book that Warden recommended is supposed to be here today (Changing Our Minds) so I’ll start that.
It's perhaps not as off topic as you might think. Religious ceremonies involving cult prostitutes in pagan temples really DOES appear to be what the Bible is referencing when it refers to 'man lying with man' and Paul's similar reference in Romans 1-18-27. Those with no understanding that such things actually DID take place as a sacred worship practice to the idols back in the day accuse those of us that DO understand as having 'twisted the Bible to support a pro-gay agenda'. These continuing present-day religious rituals involving the slaughter of animals, etc. only affirms other ancient religious rituals and practices that humans partook of which the Bible references ...and condemns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
No it doesn't. The passage is absolutely no ways even implies that the same sex activity was ONLY part of a pagan ritual. It clear as crystal day says that it is UNNATURAL and a sign of people completely lost in their own sinful lusts.
Paul is clearly on a rant in Romans 1:18-27, so much so that it's nigh impossible for we today to decipher much of the actual content of what he's referring to. So, don't pretend that you know what Paul is talking about, Jeff ...you DON'T! WE (those of us today) were never meant to understand Romans 1 since, 1. it had NOTHING to do with us in the year 2019, and, 2. Paul would have had no inkling that his letters would one day be collated and placed into an 'add-on' book to the Old Testament scriptures and received and read by a 21st-century audience. Why IS IT that SO many Christians believe that every jot and tittle printed in the Bible is meant to apply to present-day readers? In fact, how can anyone today actually relate to what Paul is writing about in many of his letter to the churches?
That said, Jeff, if you can give me just ONE instance where Paul IS NOT referring to idolatry in Romans 1:18-27, and the religious pagan practices that were being performed by former believers of God, then by all means, have at it.
Jeff, do you really believe that I would actually make up stuff regarding Bible texts that could be so easily seen through and just as easily refuted? That would not only be deceitful but would also be the height of stupidity ...!
No it doesn't. The passage is absolutely no ways even implies that the same sex activity was ONLY part of a pagan ritual. It clear as crystal day says that it is UNNATURAL and a sign of people completely lost in their own sinful lusts.
The passage says that God gave them over to all depravity so by that account LGBT Christians should be completely unable to behave in loving, kind, patient, forgiving ways. But we KNOW that isn't true. There are LGBT people all over the place who display the "fruits of the Spirit." The fruits of the Spirit come from the Spirit. Remember Stmarks' testimony of the gay pastor who brought his daughter back to her faith? What do you make of that?
Paul is clearly on a rant in Romans 1:18-27, so much so that it's nigh impossible for we today to decipher much of the actual content of what he's referring to. So, don't pretend that you know what Paul is talking about, Jeff ...you DON'T! WE (those of us today) were never meant to understand Romans 1 since, 1. it had NOTHING to do with us in the year 2019, and, 2. Paul would have had no inkling that his letters would one day be collated and placed into an 'add-on' book to the Old Testament scriptures and received and read by a 21st-century audience. Why IS IT that SO many Christians believe that every jot and tittle printed in the Bible is meant to apply to present-day readers? In fact, how can anyone today actually relate to what Paul is writing about in many of his letter to the churches?
That said, Jeff, if you can give me just ONE instance where Paul IS NOT referring to idolatry in Romans 1:18-27, and the religious pagan practices that were being performed by former believers of God, then by all means, have at it.
Jeff, do you really believe that I would actually make up stuff regarding Bible texts that could be so easily seen through and just as easily refuted? That would not only be deceitful but would also be the height of stupidity ...!
Yes! Paul is clearly on a rant here. We're reading other people's mail, and only one side of it, so we don't actually know the entire story. People should read Pete Enns' book "How the Bible Actually Works" or listen to his podcast "the Bible for Normal People" for help in interpreting letters written to other people 2000 years ago.
The passage says that God gave them over to all depravity so by that account LGBT Christians should be completely unable to behave in loving, kind, patient, forgiving ways. But we KNOW that isn't true. There are LGBT people all over the place who display the "fruits of the Spirit." The fruits of the Spirit come from the Spirit. Remember Stmarks' testimony of the gay pastor who brought his daughter back to her faith? What do you make of that?
There are a lot, a MAJORITY of LGBT who do give over to depravity. Study after study show that gay men overwhemly are promiscuous, often with complete strangers. That's lust. Just like Paul talks about here.
If we are going to use isolated examples then I'll be glad to repost the vidoes of people who have left the chains of homosexuality and found new life and freedom by following Christ and the Bible. Slapping a love label on sin doesn't make it cease to be sin.
Paul is clearly on a rant in Romans 1:18-27, so much so that it's nigh impossible for we today to decipher much of the actual content of what he's referring to. So, don't pretend that you know what Paul is talking about, Jeff ...you DON'T! WE (those of us today) were never meant to understand Romans 1 since, 1. it had NOTHING to do with us in the year 2019, and, 2. Paul would have had no inkling that his letters would one day be collated and placed into an 'add-on' book to the Old Testament scriptures and received and read by a 21st-century audience. Why IS IT that SO many Christians believe that every jot and tittle printed in the Bible is meant to apply to present-day readers? In fact, how can anyone today actually relate to what Paul is writing about in many of his letter to the churches?
That said, Jeff, if you can give me just ONE instance where Paul IS NOT referring to idolatry in Romans 1:18-27, and the religious pagan practices that were being performed by former believers of God, then by all means, have at it.
Jeff, do you really believe that I would actually make up stuff regarding Bible texts that could be so easily seen through and just as easily refuted? That would not only be deceitful but would also be the height of stupidity ...!
You have brilliantly shown your ignorance on Christianity to such an extreme that your beliefs are completely foreign to mainstream Christianity. He said it was an abomination that defiled the land itself in the OT. If God approved of homosexuality, He would not have said such things. And if Jesus approved of homosexuality, He would not have said He supports and respects the ENTIRE OT law. Paul only confirms it over and over.
No Christian should trust your opinion especially since you regard the Bible and Satan as fairy tales.
The passage says that God gave them over to all depravity so by that account LGBT Christians should be completely unable to behave in loving, kind, patient, forgiving ways. But we KNOW that isn't true. There are LGBT people all over the place who display the "fruits of the Spirit." The fruits of the Spirit come from the Spirit. Remember Stmarks' testimony of the gay pastor who brought his daughter back to her faith? What do you make of that?
This is absolutely the truth here.
We can also debunk the fundamentalist take from another angle. These Romans were cited for giving up worship of God for things created... i.e. idol worship. Pagan worship.
How many cultures throughout history have had (and still have) some form of pagan worship? Have worshiped idols? If this is to be taken at a literal face value, then those cultures should have become completely homosexual. Is that the case in any culture that worships idols?
This is the formula that Jeff and others have used to describe homosexuality in the world. Men and women stop worshiping God and start worshiping idols and BOOM! they start lusting after their own gender.
Oh if it were only that simple. It isn't. It's not the case in history, it is not the case currently so that is NOT what Paul is saying in these passages.
Stop using this passage to make a wholesale condemnation of LGBT people! If you are a heterosexual Christian and you start going to pagan rituals and start leaving your natural heterosexual orientation and start having unnatural homosexual sex in a worship ritual, then this applies to you.
Otherwise let it go.
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