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John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
My belief and the belief of many Christians is that when we die, we actually die. We do not go up to heaven to be with Jesus consciously, to live with Him forever. Our spirit returns to God, however, our body and our souls die. Our loved ones who have passed on, are not sitting consciously in heaven living forever, watching over us, as many believe.
This is why we believe this.
If we go straight to heaven, consciously, to live with Jesus when we die, then there is no reason for a resurrection. We will already be in heaven living with Jesus forever.
But Jesus says that there will come an hour when the dead will hear His voice and those who hear, will live.
They are not living until they hear His voice.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
The apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that if the dead are not raised, then, we have perished.
1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
The resurrection is essential, is key, is vital to our being made alive.
Without the resurrection, we are not living in heaven with Jesus. We are dead.
This is why the resurrection is so important.
Many point to this scripture to say that when we die, we consciously go to be with Jesus.
Philippians 1: 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 [s]But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know [t]which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Jesus has the keys to death and Hades. (Revelations 1:18) They are in His hands. We are in His hands when we die because He has the keys to death and Hades.
When we are resurrected or raised by the Lord, we will see Him face to face. We will be with Him consciously then. Paul knew this. He understood that death is only a temporary condition. It is described as sleep because it is not a permanent condition. Paul knew that when he was raised by the Lord, He would immediately be with the Lord consciously. When we are raised by the Lord, it will be as if no time has passed. The dead do not know that they are dead.
Christ is the only person who has ascended into heaven and who has immortality right now. He dwells in unapproachable light and no one has seen it or can see this.
John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..
1 Timothy 6:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [k]kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionos) dominion! Amen.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope (elpis-expectation). 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words..
My first reaction upon reading this was, "Yes! That is absolutely right!" When I re-read it, a couple of questions did come to my mind, though, and while I think our beliefs have much in common, we may disagree as to a few points. So, rather than commenting further at this point, I would like to ask you a question or two. What exactly do your mean when you say that our spirit returns to God? In other words, exactly what do you mean by "our spirit"? What is it about us that returns to God? Is it consciousness? Is it life of some sort? Is it a cognizant entity? I've always thought of the spirit as the source of life and believe that, unlike the body, it does not die. What are your thoughts on this?
The spirit returns to G-d who gave it...The soul however does not and the dead know nothing...
In Revelations 20;6 ......``Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection , on such the second death has no power, but they shell be priest of God and of Christ , and will reign with Him a thousand year``............. See this the millennial Reign where the devil or demons and satan and fallen angels and powers of darkness will be in chains in the abyss for thousand years until sin comes back ...... satan and his hoards do not go to heaven but these have been removed from the earth for thousand year as a dispensation so God will have a witness of man in the earth without the influence of evil spirits...........So if all the thousands of anointed Christians who have known Jesus for thousands of years ago till then are there or in heaven as promised
The spirit returns to G-d who gave it...The soul however does not and the dead know nothing...
In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”
From the book of Ecclesiastes: “Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc. A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off. Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?
We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles. Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.”
Solomon wrote only the four books, HIS songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes’ without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.
If you believe the book of Ecclesiastes as gospel truth where it says that the dead know nothing, then you must also believe that there is no such thing as the resurrection of the dead, for the same SATIRICAL work of Solomon says; "Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.”
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
<snip>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
I think that you missed something in John 5:25...
What did she miss? She started out with John 5:25 (as above). The verse is saying that the hour is coming (but who knows when that hour will be?) when the dead (those that presently 'sleep' in their graves) will hear the voice of Jesus (at His second coming) and rise from their graves. We see a single example of this when the voice of Jesus causes Lazarus (John 11:1-44) to rise from the dead.
How do you then take Jesus's answer in Luke 23:43 to the thief on the cross: ""Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Seems to me, he said that repentant thief was going to paradise IMMEDIATELY at death.
Are you saying Jesus lied?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Didn’t Jesus go to hell for three days after he died?...
Yes. Mike didn't think that one out as well as he might have. Jesus didn't go anywhere. Nor did the thief. Actually, as I'm sure you know, 'hell' is merely 'the grave' and that's where Jesus spent 3 days. The thief is still there awaiting the resurrection.
What did she miss? She started out with John 5:25 (as above). The verse is saying that the hour is coming (but who knows when that hour will be?) when the dead (those that presently 'sleep' in their graves) will hear the voice of Jesus (at His second coming) and rise from their graves. We see a single example of this when the voice of Jesus causes Lazarus (John 11:1-44) to rise from the dead.
John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
My belief and the belief of many Christians is that when we die, we actually die. We do not go up to heaven to be with Jesus consciously, to live with Him forever. Our spirit returns to God, however, our body and our souls die. Our loved ones who have passed on, are not sitting consciously in heaven living forever, watching over us, as many believe.
<snipped for brevity>
I've no horse in this race (no longer a Christian and definitely not an inerrantist), but how does John 11:26 fit in with your beliefs, Shana? "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
The spirit returns to G-d who gave it...The soul however does not and the dead know nothing...
Genesis says that when God breathed the breath of life into Adam's body, he "became a living soul." Likewise, when the breath of life leaves the body, there is no longer a "living soul." There is just a body (as there was before God breathed life into it), and a spirit, which is eternal and cannot die. For this reason, it makes no sense to refer to the soul as if it were some sort of a third component of what makes man.
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