Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, BapFun, according to the descriptions of Jesus's response to His scourging and crucifixion with agape love and forgiveness EVEN to His torturers and murderers! That is unambiguous and cannot ever be interpreted to believe that Jesus is wrathful or vengeful. Since we believe He completely represents God the Father, it is impossible to attribute wrath and vengeance to the Father.
Our ignorant ancestors knew no other God BUT a wrathful and vengeful one who needed to be appeased by sacrifices so they can be excused for misinterpreting the significance of Jesus submitting to the ravages of the Cross. They have an excuse for missing the obvious implications of Jesus's attitude on the Cross. But we who should know better do not have any such excuse, IMO. Frankly, I do not know how to account for the multi-millennial retention of that ancient ignorant interpretation.
That is not true, Basil. I trust in the Jesus revealed and unambiguously described in the Bible narrative based on His nature and attitude during scourging and crucifixion. Retaining agape love and forgiveness under such horrendous treatment, even for His torturers and murderers, is an unambiguous demonstration of a mind devoid of wrath or vengeance. That is the "mind of Christ" that I use to know the "mind of God," NOT the primitive and barbaric minds of our ancient ancestors who mistakenly believed God was wrathful and vengeful.
Jesus has been revealed throughout the Old and the New Testament. To clarify, that is the Jesus I trust in and am upheld by. I do not understand Our Father as he revealed himself in the Old Testament to be wrathful and vengeful, but rather just. He will by no means clear the guilty. Those who are not found in Jesus will be judged by God, according to his word. If someone brutally raped my 5-year old daughter and tortured her to death, I would be livid if the judge just said "It's okay. Let's just forgive everyone." Crimes need to be punished with justice. That is not primitive or barbaric, that is something which is needed in a civilized society. I'm sorry it appears you think it is wrong to punish crimes, the only logical end I can come to when you describe God as barbaric to mete out punishment on the last day to those who are outside of Jesus.
I understand you believe something of a Jesus that is described in the New Testament, but when I pointed out some verses where Jesus talks about hell and eternal torment, you say those were made up. So you are cherry picking what verses of the Bible you believe in. I believe in every single one of the verses, that they were given to us from God our Father. That is clearly not what grounds your faith. My faith is grounded in the entire word of God and is ultimately upheld by Jesus, the object of my faith.
And yes, he did not have vengeance on his torturers and murderers at his crucifixion. That is the biblical truth. He asked his Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing. We just must come to the agreement that we are not on the same page as how we view the Bible. There doesn't seem much point to continue on in the conversation.
Jesus has been revealed throughout the Old and the New Testament. To clarify, that is the Jesus I trust in and am upheld by. I do not understand Our Father as he revealed himself in the Old Testament to be wrathful and vengeful, but rather just. He will by no means clear the guilty. Those who are not found in Jesus will be judged by God, according to his word. If someone brutally raped my 5-year old daughter and tortured her to death, I would be livid if the judge just said "It's okay. Let's just forgive everyone." Crimes need to be punished with justice. That is not primitive or barbaric, that is something which is needed in a civilized society. I'm sorry it appears you think it is wrong to punish crimes, the only logical end I can come to when you describe God as barbaric to mete out punishment on the last day to those who are outside of Jesus.
I understand you believe something of a Jesus that is described in the New Testament, but when I pointed out some verses where Jesus talks about hell and eternal torment, you say those were made up. So you are cherry picking what verses of the Bible you believe in. I believe in every single one of the verses, that they were given to us from God our Father. That is clearly not what grounds your faith. My faith is grounded in the entire word of God and is ultimately upheld by Jesus, the object of my faith.
And yes, he did not have vengeance on his torturers and murderers at his crucifixion. That is the biblical truth. He asked his Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing. We just must come to the agreement that we are not on the same page as how we view the Bible. There doesn't seem much point to continue on in the conversation.
You are mixing up consequences with motivations which is what our ignorant primitive ancestors did with everything. To them, ALL negative consequences of ANY kind were the result of God's wrath and ANY positive consequences of ANY kind were the result of God's rewards. They did not even make exceptions from that thinking to take responsibility for their OWN actions and decisions. They even believed their own actions were the result of God's wrath or vengeance.
Do you see the problem with using their primitive understanding to interpret God despite the clear and unambiguous True Nature of God as revealed by Jesus on the Cross??? Their interpretation is automatically flawed and biased toward a wrathful and vengeful God. That has been the source of the misunderstanding of Christ's sacrifice to this very day.
Jesus has been revealed throughout the Old and the New Testament. To clarify, that is the Jesus I trust in and am upheld by. I do not understand Our Father as he revealed himself in the Old Testament to be wrathful and vengeful, but rather just. He will by no means clear the guilty. Those who are not found in Jesus will be judged by God, according to his word. If someone brutally raped my 5-year old daughter and tortured her to death, I would be livid if the judge just said "It's okay. Let's just forgive everyone." Crimes need to be punished with justice. That is not primitive or barbaric, that is something which is needed in a civilized society. I'm sorry it appears you think it is wrong to punish crimes, the only logical end I can come to when you describe God as barbaric to mete out punishment on the last day to those who are outside of Jesus.
I understand you believe something of a Jesus that is described in the New Testament, but when I pointed out some verses where Jesus talks about hell and eternal torment, you say those were made up. So you are cherry picking what verses of the Bible you believe in. I believe in every single one of the verses, that they were given to us from God our Father. That is clearly not what grounds your faith. My faith is grounded in the entire word of God and is ultimately upheld by Jesus, the object of my faith.
And yes, he did not have vengeance on his torturers and murderers at his crucifixion. That is the biblical truth. He asked his Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing. We just must come to the agreement that we are not on the samAde page as how we view the Bible. There doesn't seem much point to continue on in the conversation.
There is no free ride Basil. The mass of mankind were made sinners in Adam1, the identical mass is "made righteous" in the Last.
There is NO "eternal torment" in Canon. Hell, (all 4 of them), are consummated with death in the Lake of Theos radiating with theion and theioo.
The following is from Jerwade posted earlier today..
"The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion) or eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, (at least not in conjunction.
Whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (age-abiding) kalasin (chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable.
If it were eternal, then the word aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment, or life for that matter. It is not talking about eternity, rather the quality of life, which will be one of righteousness or a period of correction to set things right!"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
