Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have heard many say that baptism is a “work.” How is something Jesus commanded a work? How can it be considered “works based salvation?” Can someone give Scriptural support for this teaching? Thanks in advance.
It's not a "work". Not sure where you got that. It's a voluntary act that one has the freedom to do (or not do) in imitation of Christ.
If baptism is works of Christ along with faith, and prayer then this would be legalism and that would be idolatry, which could happen with people who have no interest and would be pleasing others, Not God .... ``For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves it is a gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast..`` Ephesians 2:9,10
It's not a "work". Not sure where you got that. It's a voluntary act that one has the freedom to do (or not do) in imitation of Christ.
So what would qualify as "a work" in your opinion? Although I do not agree with them, some people say that anything beyond faith is a "work." I see pretty much any voluntary action we do in imitation of Christ as being a "work of righteousness," and I see absolutely nothing wrong with works of righteousness.
So what would qualify as "a work" in your opinion? Although I do not agree with them, some people say that anything beyond faith is a "work." I see pretty much any voluntary action we do in imitation of Christ as being a "work of righteousness," and I see absolutely nothing wrong with works of righteousness.
The issue is when we say we must do those thing in order to be saved. How do we know when we've done enough?
Then, of course, we have Galatians 3:1-2 "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"
However, if a person mistakenly thinks that he must be baptized in water in order to be eternally saved, then for that person it becomes work based salvation which is false theology. Anything a person adds to salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus is works based salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
It's not a "work". Not sure where you got that. It's a voluntary act that one has the freedom to do (or not do) in imitation of Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
So what would qualify as "a work" in your opinion? Although I do not agree with them, some people say that anything beyond faith is a "work." I see pretty much any voluntary action we do in imitation of Christ as being a "work of righteousness," and I see absolutely nothing wrong with works of righteousness.
Katzpur, you weren’t asking me but I agree with you on the works of righteousness
It seems to me that the intention has a lot to do with how it is viewed, if we are looking for a reward or to please man it would be a type of work - and seems to be be what Mike is saying in his post
It's not a "work". Not sure where you got that. It's a voluntary act that one has the freedom to do (or not do) in imitation of Christ.
Too many Christians think their salvation depends on what they do or do not do, but they are WRONG! Our salvation depends on what Jesus did and it is finished!!! We have nothing to do with our salvation. All this nonsense about works and salvation is just that, nonsense!
Our works are what we build on the foundation of agape love and forgiveness that Jesus laid. Our job is to love God and each other every day and repent when we fail. That is what will be tested, but we are "saved as by fire" by what Jesus did. We will ALL reap whatever we sow and have not repented while alive no matter what.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
However, understand this: Peter and Paul did not preach exactly the same gospel. Gal 2:7 clearly describes how unto Peter was committed the gospel of the circumcision, while unto Paul was committed the gospel of the uncircumcision. In Acts 10, God gave the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles upon faith, not water baptism. Peter's reaction even says it all - he asks how can they forbid water to those upon whom God has given the Spirit? It's a kind of lesser-to-greater argument, which is common in Scripture.
Likewise, in Gal 3:2, Paul asks rhetorically whether the Galatians had received the Spirit by the hearing of faith or by works of the law. The points to two distinct realities. (1) The receipt of the Spirit is an experiential event in which one is sealed (Eph 1:13-14) and receives the earnest of his inheritance in his heart (2 Cor 1:21-22). It must be experiential, or else Paul's rhetorical question becomes merely academic, and thus irrelevant in context. He further repeated this in Gal 3:14, where he says that we receive the promise of the Spirit by faith (Gal 3:14). What is the promise of the Spirit? Again, the earnest of your inheritance (Eph 1:13-14). It knowing your election of God (1 Thess 1:4-5). It is knowing by the witness of the Holy Spirit that you are a child of God (Rom 8:16). And (2) it points to the fact that, as in Acts 10, the Spirit is given by faith, and not works, not water baptism.
If you've therefore received the earnest of your inheritance, then you're eternally sealed, eternally secure. You can never lose your salvation, no matter what happens and no matter what you do. Hence, we are sealed. This is what water baptism points to. It's the baptism that saves us (1 Pet 3:20-21). As the scripture indicates, Jesus baptizes His people with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33). So, obviously, water baptism which occurs subsequent to Holy Spirit baptism has nothing to do with eternal salvation, according to Paul's gospel (and God will judge the world according to Paul's "my gospel" - Rom 2:16).
So consider this scripture:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
These are the only two possibilities here. In other words, believing but not being baptized is not a possibility, because the baptism being considered here is ultimately Holy Spirit baptism. Mark 16:16 is exhaustive of all possibilities. Either they don't believe, or they believe and are baptized. But one can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and not be baptized in water. Such a person is sealed, having received the earnest of his inheritance. Logically, it does not depend on whether he will go on to be baptized in water.
The issue is when we say we must do those thing in order to be saved. How do we know when we've done enough?
As I've explained countless times before, BF, there is no "enough." God's not weighing our good deeds and, once we hit some magic number on the scale, saying, "Congratulations! You're in!" I'm not sure why you can't understand that.
Quote:
Then, of course, we have Galatians 3:1-2 "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"
Neither. It's not about believing or knowing or doing. It's about becoming. It's about having a change of heart.
There is a song LDS children have sung for decades. The first verse goes:
I am a child of God, and He has sent me here,
Has given me an earthly home with parents kind and dear.
The chorus follows:
Lead me, guide me, walk beside me, help me find the way.
Teach me all that I must do to live with him someday.
There are two or three more verses, and each one is followed by the same chorus. The song was written back in the 1950s. Originally, the second line of the chorus was, "Teach me all that I must know to live with him someday." Shortly after the song was written and became popular the then-President of the Church asked the woman who wrote the lyrics how she would feel if the words were changed to say, "Teach me all that I must do." His reason for this was to teach the children that knowing the difference between right and wrong is important but that what really matters is being willing to put our money where our mouth is -- i.e., putting into action the things we've learned.
The men at the jail where I teach Sunday School love to sing this song, and it just melts my heart every time I listen to a group of them sing it. But what I have started to try to get across to them is that even "doing" what's right is not what God wants from us. What He really wants is for us to "become" the kind of people who love the Lord with all our hearts, souls and mind, and who love our neighbor as ourselves. "Doing" something to gain a reward isn't going to accomplish anything. "Doing" something out of love and a sincere desire to care for one another is what it's all about. That kind of "doing" is not "works based salvation."
Katzpur, you weren’t asking me but I agree with you on the works of righteousness
It seems to me that the intention has a lot to do with how it is viewed, if we are looking for a reward or to please man it would be a type of work - and seems to be be what Mike is saying in his post
As I've explained countless times before, BF, there is no "enough." God's not weighing our good deeds and, once we hit some magic number on the scale, saying, "Congratulations! You're in!" I'm not sure why you can't understand that.
Neither. It's not about believing or knowing or doing. It's about becoming. It's about having a change of heart.
Amen! What we are becoming is what it is all about, Katz.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Amen! What we are becoming is what it is all about, Katz.
