Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Too many Christians think their salvation depends on what they do or do not do, but they are WRONG! Our salvation depends on what Jesus did and it is finished!!! We have nothing to do with our salvation. All this nonsense about works and salvation is just that, nonsense!
Our works are what we build on the foundation of agape love and forgiveness that Jesus laid. Our job is to love God and each other every day and repent when we fail. That is what will be tested, but we are "saved as by fire" by what Jesus did. We will ALL reap whatever we sow and have not repented while alive no matter what.
Thank you for your comments. If what you say is true, then we have no choice in whether we are saved. That sounds like unconditional election, which is false teaching. The Scriptures teach salvation is conditional. Yes, it is by God’s Grace we are saved, but faith is our access to His grace. Baptism is a response to our faith.
It's not. We are expected to be obedient to God's commandments. In John 14:15, we read, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
We are reminded twice in Matthew that we much do the will of the Father and will be rewarded for doing do. That is not "works-based salvation," and because we have been commanded to be baptized, keeping that commandment is merely obedience.
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
The only thing we have to do is trust in the redemptive work of Christ.
When a person truly trusts in Jesus, he/she will obey His commands. The Scriptures teach that believing in Jesus will save, but nowhere do they say belief only. Even the demons believe.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
However, understand this: Peter and Paul did not preach exactly the same gospel. Gal 2:7 clearly describes how unto Peter was committed the gospel of the circumcision, while unto Paul was committed the gospel of the uncircumcision. In Acts 10, God gave the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles upon faith, not water baptism. Peter's reaction even says it all - he asks how can they forbid water to those upon whom God has given the Spirit? It's a kind of lesser-to-greater argument, which is common in Scripture.
Likewise, in Gal 3:2, Paul asks rhetorically whether the Galatians had received the Spirit by the hearing of faith or by works of the law. The points to two distinct realities. (1) The receipt of the Spirit is an experiential event in which one is sealed (Eph 1:13-14) and receives the earnest of his inheritance in his heart (2 Cor 1:21-22). It must be experiential, or else Paul's rhetorical question becomes merely academic, and thus irrelevant in context. He further repeated this in Gal 3:14, where he says that we receive the promise of the Spirit by faith (Gal 3:14). What is the promise of the Spirit? Again, the earnest of your inheritance (Eph 1:13-14). It knowing your election of God (1 Thess 1:4-5). It is knowing by the witness of the Holy Spirit that you are a child of God (Rom 8:16). And (2) it points to the fact that, as in Acts 10, the Spirit is given by faith, and not works, not water baptism.
If you've therefore received the earnest of your inheritance, then you're eternally sealed, eternally secure. You can never lose your salvation, no matter what happens and no matter what you do. Hence, we are sealed. This is what water baptism points to. It's the baptism that saves us (1 Pet 3:20-21). As the scripture indicates, Jesus baptizes His people with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33). So, obviously, water baptism which occurs subsequent to Holy Spirit baptism has nothing to do with eternal salvation, according to Paul's gospel (and God will judge the world according to Paul's "my gospel" - Rom 2:16).
So consider this scripture:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
These are the only two possibilities here. In other words, believing but not being baptized is not a possibility, because the baptism being considered here is ultimately Holy Spirit baptism. Mark 16:16 is exhaustive of all possibilities. Either they don't believe, or they believe and are baptized. But one can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and not be baptized in water. Such a person is sealed, having received the earnest of his inheritance. Logically, it does not depend on whether he will go on to be baptized in water.
Peter and Paul preached the same gospel, which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. They both taught the same baptism, which is a picture of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Baptism is a burial. It is a burial in water. It is our statement that we are dead to sin. We join Jesus in His death at baptism. We die and rise again with Christ to live a new life as a new person joined to Christ. Every Christian we read about in Scripture was buried in water. Why would Peter tell of Noah being saved through water and then tell us baptism corresponds to this? Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. Our deliverance is made possible through the resurrection of Christ. Our salvation is based on Jesus’ righteousness and deeds. Nowhere are we told that baptism is by the Spirit only. Jesus never rescinded His command to be immersed in water.
There is-- a mass of confusion in this world because satan is its ruler as Jesus said he was. Baptism is not a work Its a public display of one promising God to be his forever. To many blind guides.
Too many listen to the interpretations of others, but we must reason through the Scriptures and decide for ourselves what they mean. It takes time and determination. Question everything you’ve been taught, and remember Satan is a master of deceit, especially when it comes to the word of God. He’s had thousands of years to perfect it.
Gal 2:7 says otherwise. The grammatical structure in Greek is that Paul's was the gospel of or belonging to the uncircumcision, and Peter's of the circumcision.
Quote:
They both taught the same baptism, which is a picture of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection.
Firstly, one of the fundamental doctrines of Christ is the doctrine of baptisms (plural) - see Heb 6:1-2. There is more than one baptism. There's Holy Spirit baptism, which is what we're told that Jesus would baptize His people with (John 1:33). And, of course, there's water baptism. However, the "one baptism"--just as surely as there is one Lord and one faith--is Holy Spirit baptism:
Eph 4:4-6:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Quote:
It is our statement that we are dead to sin.
But no man's saying that he's dead to sin means he's actually dead to sin. To be dead to sin, you must be in Christ. You must be born again. To be in Christ, you must be baptized into Him (Rom 6:3). This is Holy Spirit baptism.
Quote:
Every Christian we read about in Scripture was buried in water.
"Baptism" in the New Testament can only be taken as water baptism if it's specified so. Otherwise, in Pauline uses of the term in, for example, Rom 6:3-4, Eph 4:4-6, Col 2:11-12 are all referring to Holy Spirit baptism. The Spirit is received by faith (Gal 3:2, 3:14). Not water. Not in Paul's gospel.
Quote:
Why would Peter tell of Noah being saved through water and then tell us baptism corresponds to this? Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience.
Water baptism is not an appeal to God for a good conscience. That can only be given in Holy Spirit baptism. This can only be given when one is sealed with the Spirit and given the earnest (or pledge) of his inheritance.
If you think this refers to water baptism, it makes absolutely no sense. Peter was talking about Holy Spirit baptism in 1 Peter 3.
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Try as one may, there's ultimately no way to twist this scripture into Peter saying that baptism merely is the like figure of our salvation. Peter is saying baptism saves us! But he is NOT saying water baptism saves us! Water also represents the Spirit. John 7:38-39:
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Quote:
Nowhere are we told that baptism is by the Spirit only. Jesus never rescinded His command to be immersed in water.
John 1:33:
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
When a person truly trusts in Jesus, he/she will obey His commands. The Scriptures teach that believing in Jesus will save, but nowhere do they say belief only. Even the demons believe.
We are saved by trusting in Christ, period. Works are a response to that and part of the sanctification process.
Gal 2:7 says otherwise. The grammatical structure in Greek is that Paul's was the gospel of or belonging to the uncircumcision, and Peter's of the circumcision.
Firstly, one of the fundamental doctrines of Christ is the doctrine of baptisms (plural) - see Heb 6:1-2. There is more than one baptism. There's Holy Spirit baptism, which is what we're told that Jesus would baptize His people with (John 1:33). And, of course, there's water baptism. However, the "one baptism"--just as surely as there is one Lord and one faith--is Holy Spirit baptism:
Eph 4:4-6:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
But no man's saying that he's dead to sin means he's actually dead to sin. To be dead to sin, you must be in Christ. You must be born again. To be in Christ, you must be baptized into Him (Rom 6:3). This is Holy Spirit baptism.
"Baptism" in the New Testament can only be taken as water baptism if it's specified so. Otherwise, in Pauline uses of the term in, for example, Rom 6:3-4, Eph 4:4-6, Col 2:11-12 are all referring to Holy Spirit baptism. The Spirit is received by faith (Gal 3:2, 3:14). Not water. Not in Paul's gospel.
Water baptism is not an appeal to God for a good conscience. That can only be given in Holy Spirit baptism. This can only be given when one is sealed with the Spirit and given the earnest (or pledge) of his inheritance.
If you think this refers to water baptism, it makes absolutely no sense. Peter was talking about Holy Spirit baptism in 1 Peter 3.
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Try as one may, there's ultimately no way to twist this scripture into Peter saying that baptism merely is the like figure of our salvation. Peter is saying baptism saves us! But he is NOT saying water baptism saves us! Water also represents the Spirit. John 7:38-39:
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 1:33:
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Thank you for your post.
Yes, Peter preached to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles, but their message was the same. Both preached the death, burial and resurrection. Both preached immersion in water.
There is nothing in the Romans 6, Colossians 2, or 1 Peter 3 passages to indicate Holy Spirit baptism and not water. If you believe there is, then please prove it.
I disagree with you that the one baptism is Holy Spirit baptism and not immersion in water. 1- If Holy Spirit baptism were the ONE baptism, then there would be no immersion in water in the Christian age. Your view teaches two baptisms, not one. 2. The command to immerse in water was never rescinded by Jesus or any of His Apostles. 3. The Holy Spirit, through Peter said that the salvation of Noah through WATER corresponds to baptism which now saves you. Nothing whatsoever, in the passage even hints at Holy Spirit baptism. I’m afraid your view is based on someone else’s teachings because it’s not coming from the word of God. 4. Jesus, in His great commission told His disciples to baptize. We read throughout Acts His command being carried out, but as you pointed out, it would be Jesus who baptized with the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism was never commanded. 5. The removal of water from baptism and making baptism Spirit only came from the teachings of Zwingli in the 1500s. Prior to that, it was never taught. I challenge you to prove otherwise. 6. Please look at the 1 Peter 3 passage in its original language, and look at other translations. Baptism most definitely an appeal to God for a good conscience. We are asking Him to cleanse us. 7. Ananias commanded Paul to arise and be baptized and have your sins washed away. Holy Spirit baptism was never commanded. Paul was commanded to be immersed in water.
Yes, Peter preached to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles, but their message was the same. Both preached the death, burial and resurrection. Both preached immersion in water.
On the contrary, Paul said specifically that he was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. 1 Cor 1:17. Peter preached repent and be baptized, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And that's the pattern that was followed until the revelation of Paul's uncircumcision gospel. God gave the Gentiles the Spirit prior to any water baptism in Acts 10.
Quote:
There is nothing in the Romans 6, Colossians 2, or 1 Peter 3 passages to indicate Holy Spirit baptism and not water. If you believe there is, then please prove it.
In Romans 6:3, Paul talks about being baptized *into Jesus Christ*. This is not water baptism at all. This refers to when the Spirit is given. As Paul said, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Rom 8:9). Water baptism did not place anyone into Christ. It was the gift of the Spirit that did this. In Peter's gospel, the Spirit was given upon water baptism. Hence his surprise when God changed that up in Acts 10 for the Gentiles. Paul makes it very clear that the gift is the Spirit is solely by faith in his "my gospel" (Rom 2:16, 2 Tim 2:8).
Jesus gave to Peter the keys of the kingdom (Matt 16:19). This is how Peter exercised this, because he had the authority to baptize. When Samaria received the word of God, they did not receive the Spirit right away upon water baptism (Acts 8:14-17), because Peter needed to be there for when the Samaritans were translated into the kingdom.
Quote:
I disagree with you that the one baptism is Holy Spirit baptism and not immersion in water. 1- If Holy Spirit baptism were the ONE baptism, then there would be no immersion in water in the Christian age. Your view teaches two baptisms, not one.
Hebrews 6:2 also references multiple baptisms.
Quote:
I’m afraid your view is based on someone else’s teachings because it’s not coming from the word of God.
You are wrong. Your views rather seem to be based on the teachings of men. I don't even attend a church anymore; they are all apostate.
Quote:
4. Jesus, in His great commission told His disciples to baptize.
See above. Paul's gospel was still a mystery at that time. And as Paul says in Romans 16:25-26, it was kept a secret since the world began, until its revelation to Paul--which he again calls "my gospel."
Quote:
We read throughout Acts His command being carried out, but as you pointed out, it would be Jesus who baptized with the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism was never commanded.
It was never commanded, because it occurs in connection with faith. The Philippian jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. Paul said, believe on the Lord Jesus. That's it. No water baptism (contract that with Acts 2:38).
Quote:
5. The removal of water from baptism and making baptism Spirit only came from the teachings of Zwingli in the 1500s. Prior to that, it was never taught. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
I've never read Zwingli. I would not dispute that this teaching was not widely taught, even going back to the so-called "early church fathers," who taught damnable heresies. Because what you, and most others, think of as "church history" is actually the history of the great apostasy (1 Tim 4:1-3, 2 Thess 2:3-12). As Paul says in 2 Thessalonians, the mystery of iniquity was already at work. And as he says in 2 Tim 3, evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
But I know what the Bible teaches, and that's all that matters.
Quote:
6. Please look at the 1 Peter 3 passage in its original language, and look at other translations. Baptism most definitely an appeal to God for a good conscience. We are asking Him to cleanse us.
Water baptism cannot do this. The natural man is still a sinner. It's the sealing of the Spirit that cleanses an evil conscience.
Quote:
7. Ananias commanded Paul to arise and be baptized and have your sins washed away. Holy Spirit baptism was never commanded. Paul was commanded to be immersed in water.
Again, see above. This was the Petrine gospel. But Paul says God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to his "my gospel."
Jesus repeatedly indicates it's through belief in Him, as a mental and spiritual inward act. There's nothing outward involved or required.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 10-21-2021 at 08:25 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
