Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Actually, he's referring to anything that we do that might impress God. It was more than just the Mosaic Law.
In any event, your position is that we don't have to obey the Law of Moses, but we DO have to observe some other set of commands?
How do we know the baptism is good enough? How do we know we've repented enough? Do you believe we have to live a certain way, then? Can we lose our salvation?
Do you have a Scripture that shows Paul, when speaking of works, is referring to anything we do to impress God? Im not saying there isn’t one, but I prefer to always have Scriptures to support what I believe.
You are correct. I do not believe we have to keep the Law of Moses. However, Jesus has made it clear that we are to do the will of the Father if we want to enter heaven (Matt. 7:21). He also said that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15), and in Luke 6:46, Jesus said why call me Lord and not do as I say? Keep in mind that Jesus is the author of salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).
Since Jesus commanded that we baptize, I have to trust Him. I have to believe what Peter said, that at the time of our baptism, our sin would be forgiven and we would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. All any of us can do is to try our best to live up to the commands of Christ and follow His example of obedience. Will we fall short? Indeed we will, but we know that if we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us. Because we sin, repentance is ongoing throughout our lives.
We’ll have to discuss OSAS another time. It’s off topic.
Despite our many disagreements, BF, about salvation we seem to be on the same page. We have nothing to do with it. Jesus accomplished it and it is finished. Our concern and focus should be on our sanctification by building on the foundation of agape love and forgiveness Jesus laid for us through the love of God and each other every day and repentance when we fail.
Mystic, it is God who does the work at our baptism. All we do is submit to His command. Jesus was all about submission to His Father. He wants us to follow His example. It is God’s will that we be baptized. See Luke 7:29-30.
We’ll have to discuss OSAS another time. It’s off topic.
It's not off-topic at all. It's the essence of the debate. Jesus said:
Mark 3:28-29:
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Matt 12:31-32:
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
It's by the Spirit of God that I receive the earnest of my inheritance, the sealing of the Spirit. The earnest is given in my heart (2 Cor 1:21-22, Eph 1:13-14). That means I can never lose my eternal salvation, no matter what. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't; I am a slave of Jesus Christ. I am one of Christ's sheep, and He will never lose a single one (John 10:27-29). But if anyone shall say, that my salvation is not eternally secure, or that the testimony of my salvation is not of God, then such a person speaks against the Holy Spirit.
This is a matter if "in" or "out" of the kingdom of God. As Jesus said:
Matt 12:25-30:
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Miss Kate, can I ask what denomination you attend? It will let us know where your views have been formed
Thank you for asking. Questions are always welcomed.
I am not a member of any denomination. I think the best way to explain my affiliation is that I worship with a group who identify as pre denominational. I know that probably doesn’t make much sense to you, but I will do my best to explain. If a group of believers have obeyed the gospel as Jesus commanded, and their work worship and organization follow the same pattern that the Christians in the New Testament followed (to the best of their ability), then they are the same church that Jesus built. We strongly believe in getting back to the Bible. If we would all be willing to let go of the doctrines of men, and simply followed the Scriptures, imagine the unity we would have amongst believers. I hope that helps. Feel free to ask more questions.
You suggest that water baptism is necessary. Necessary for what, exactly? It's not necessary for eternal salvation. I would agree with the continuing practice of water baptism as an ordinance, insofar as Peter commanded the Gentiles be baptized in water after they'd already received the Spirit. Could a refusal of water baptism count against a believer at the judgment seat of Christ? Possibly, though I'm not aware of any scriptural support for that idea. I'm sure it depends on one's motivations. The scripture advises the people of God to "come out of her" (Rev 18:4)--that is, most surely, the false church system of this day (note the plurality in Rev 17:5, harlots & abominations)--so I would take that advice over remaining in an apostate congregation for the sake of being baptized in water.
But, in any event, it has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Paul's statement that he was not sent to baptize stands on its own. The particular issue in context--factions among the Corinthians--does not change the nature of this statement, because this is a more general statement that Paul made in response to a particular issue. He was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
Finally, the "church" (singular) is the body of Christ. From Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
This is what the gates of hell will not prevail against. That is, Jesus Christ WILL save each and every last one of His sheep, and will lose zero of His sheep (John 10:27-29). Not a single one of His bones was broken.
Is forgiveness of sins necessary for eternal salvation? When Peter preached on Pentecost, he commanded both repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He said that this promise is to you, and to your children, and to all those who are afar off. Does this sound like this promise was only temporary? If you look at other Scriptures at the phrase “those afar off,” you will learn that it is a reference to the Gentiles. You can start with Ephesians 2:14-18. In vs 17, Paul writes, “And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.” Those afar off are Gentiles. Those near are Jews. Vs 18 says, “For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.” So YES, baptism is necessary for salvation!
I will have to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow. Have a good night, and thanks for the discussion.
Thank you for asking. Questions are always welcomed.
I am not a member of any denomination. I think the best way to explain my affiliation is that I worship with a group who identify as pre denominational. I know that probably doesn’t make much sense to you, but I will do my best to explain. If a group of believers have obeyed the gospel as Jesus commanded, and their work worship and organization follow the same pattern that the Christians in the New Testament followed (to the best of their ability), then they are the same church that Jesus built. I hope that helps. Feel free to ask more questions.
Actually, the Bible is riddled with the precepts and doctrines of the men who interpreted Jesus using their belief in a wrathful and vengeful God. Jesus revealed that God is the exact OPPOSITE of wrathful and vengeful The God of Jesus is agape love and forgiveness as unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus on the Cross under horrendous scourging and crucifixion.
I strongly believe in getting back to the God of Jesus. If we would all be willing to let go of the wrathful doctrines of men and simply follow the loving and forgiving God of Jesus, imagine the love and unity we would have amongst believers.
We can never do enough. We are all sinners. However, this does not mean we shouldn’t do our level best to obey the commands of Jesus. Baptism corresponds to the deliverance of Noah and his family from the flood waters. It is an appeal for a good conscience. Our deliverance is made possible by the resurrection of Jesus, by His righteousness and deeds. It is not our work that saves. It is God’s work.
Actually, I think "our best"is enough. God doesn't just measure height; he measures growth. That's an oversimplification, of course, but He knows we're incapable of a perfect or even near-perfect performance. All He expects of us is our best, and we should be happy to give Him that much after all He has done for us. We shouldn't be saying, "Well, I can't do 'enough' so why bother?" We're here to become everything that He has given us the potential to become, and that's what we should be aiming for.
Yes. The subject is salvation. You’re talking about sanctification.
Okay, I get that, but still... the attitude of so many Christians reminds me of when I was back in college (about a century ago). We could take one class "pass/fail." We could just barely pass, by the skin of our teeth, so to speak, and it would count for as much as if we'd aced the class. Well, I took physics pass/fail because I had a strong hunch that I'd end up getting something like a D- on it if I were to take it for a letter grade. I passed, probably just barely. But because it was pass/fail, I really didn't have a great deal of incentive to knock myself out really trying to learn all I could.
I can't understand why anybody would settle for "salvation" when that is the bare minimum we can receive. That's not what we're here for. God didn't put us here just so that we could squeak and say, "I've done the minimum to be 'saved'." He wants so much for us to attain more, but it's up to us to do so.
Jesus preached a works based theology. Paul changed it and those who misunderstand scripture follow him.
As Jesus said; “He who believes in me shall do the works I do”
“Go and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, AND TEACH THEM TO CARRY OUT EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU”.
Actually, I think "our best"is enough. God doesn't just measure height; he measures growth. That's an oversimplification, of course, but He knows we're incapable of a perfect or even near-perfect performance. All He expects of us is our best, and we should be happy to give Him that much after all He has done for us. We shouldn't be saying, "Well, I can't do 'enough' so why bother?" We're here to become everything that He has given us the potential to become, and that's what we should be aiming for.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
