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Thank you for your response. No offense meant here BF, but I think you may be misunderstanding what “work” Paul refers to in his writings. He speaks of works of the law. If we were to believe that our responses to faith are not necessary for salvation, then we would need to not only toss baptism out but repentance and confessing Jesus is the Son of God as well, since these are also things we do. We would need to throw love out too since that sometimes takes effort on our part.
It’s not that people are necessarily wrong, a lot of the time the problem is we are just looking at things from totally different perspectives and that situation has been set up from the beginning
There are timing, seasonal, regional, layering issues to be taken into account
The ritual of water baptism is the symbol of joining with an earthly community to learn from them their doctrines, rituals they have received from their “fathers”....... but for some at some stage they progress past that “earthly” state
We are saved by trusting in Christ, period. Works are a response to that and part of the sanctification process.
Thank you for your post Jimmie. I agree with you that trusting in Christ will cause us to repent and confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and it will also cause us to be immersed in water. These actions on our part are part of the salvation process and the justification and sanctification processes as well. Jesus said that belief, repentance, and confessing Jesus before men are necessary for salvation. And His Apostle Peter said baptism now saves you. Hence, the salvation process.
Thank you for your response. No offense meant here BF, but I think you may be misunderstanding what “work” Paul refers to in his writings. He speaks of works of the law. If we were to believe that our responses to faith are not necessary for salvation, then we would need to not only toss baptism out but repentance and confessing Jesus is the Son of God as well, since these are also things we do. We would need to throw love out too since that sometimes takes effort on our part.
Actually, he's referring to anything that we do that might impress God. It was more than just the Mosaic Law.
In any event, your position is that we don't have to obey the Law of Moses, but we DO have to observe some other set of commands?
How do we know the baptism is good enough? How do we know we've repented enough? Do you believe we have to live a certain way, then? Can we lose our salvation?
On the contrary, Paul said specifically that he was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. 1 Cor 1:17. Peter preached repent and be baptized, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And that's the pattern that was followed until the revelation of Paul's uncircumcision gospel. God gave the Gentiles the Spirit prior to any water baptism in Acts 10.
In Romans 6:3, Paul talks about being baptized *into Jesus Christ*. This is not water baptism at all. This refers to when the Spirit is given. As Paul said, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Rom 8:9). Water baptism did not place anyone into Christ. It was the gift of the Spirit that did this. In Peter's gospel, the Spirit was given upon water baptism. Hence his surprise when God changed that up in Acts 10 for the Gentiles. Paul makes it very clear that the gift is the Spirit is solely by faith in his "my gospel" (Rom 2:16, 2 Tim 2:8).
Jesus gave to Peter the keys of the kingdom (Matt 16:19). This is how Peter exercised this, because he had the authority to baptize. When Samaria received the word of God, they did not receive the Spirit right away upon water baptism (Acts 8:14-17), because Peter needed to be there for when the Samaritans were translated into the kingdom.
Hebrews 6:2 also references multiple baptisms.
You are wrong. Your views rather seem to be based on the teachings of men. I don't even attend a church anymore; they are all apostate.
See above. Paul's gospel was still a mystery at that time. And as Paul says in Romans 16:25-26, it was kept a secret since the world began, until its revelation to Paul--which he again calls "my gospel."
It was never commanded, because it occurs in connection with faith. The Philippian jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. Paul said, believe on the Lord Jesus. That's it. No water baptism (contract that with Acts 2:38).
I've never read Zwingli. I would not dispute that this teaching was not widely taught, even going back to the so-called "early church fathers," who taught damnable heresies. Because what you, and most others, think of as "church history" is actually the history of the great apostasy (1 Tim 4:1-3, 2 Thess 2:3-12). As Paul says in 2 Thessalonians, the mystery of iniquity was already at work. And as he says in 2 Tim 3, evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
But I know what the Bible teaches, and that's all that matters.
Water baptism cannot do this. The natural man is still a sinner. It's the sealing of the Spirit that cleanses an evil conscience.
Again, see above. This was the Petrine gospel. But Paul says God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to his "my gospel."
Hello again snj. Thank you again for getting back to me. I’m sorry to hear that you’ve given up on church. It would be impossible for all churches to be apostate, since Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. There are congregations of the Lord’s church out there. It could be that it is your view of what a church should look like is skewed, but that’s a discussion for a later time.
I have some questions. You quoted 1 Cor. 1:17. Could you please do something for me? Could you read that passage in context, beginning with verse 10? Why did Paul say in verse 14-15 that he was glad he hadn’t baptized none of them but Crispus and Gaius? Did he ever say baptism wasn’t necessary?
Actually, he's referring to anything that we do that might impress God. It was more than just the Mosaic Law.
In any event, your position is that we don't have to obey the Law of Moses, but we DO have to observe some other set of commands?
How do we know the baptism is good enough? How do we know we've repented enough? Do you believe we have to live a certain way, then? Can we lose our salvation?
Despite our many disagreements, BF, about salvation we seem to be on the same page. We have nothing to do with it. Jesus accomplished it and it is finished. Our concern and focus should be on our sanctification by building on the foundation of agape love and forgiveness Jesus laid for us through the love of God and each other every day and repentance when we fail.
Hello again snj. Thank you again for getting back to me. I’m sorry to hear that you’ve given up on church. It would be impossible for all churches to be apostate, since Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. There are congregations of the Lord’s church out there. It could be that it is your view of what a church should look like is skewed, but that’s a discussion for a later time.
I have some questions. You quoted 1 Cor. 1:17. Could you please do something for me? Could you read that passage in context, beginning with verse 10? Why did Paul say in verse 14-15 that he was glad he hadn’t baptized none of them but Crispus and Gaius? Did he ever say baptism wasn’t necessary?
Miss Kate, can I ask what denomination you attend? It will let us know where your views have been formed
Hello again snj. Thank you again for getting back to me. I’m sorry to hear that you’ve given up on church. It would be impossible for all churches to be apostate, since Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. There are congregations of the Lord’s church out there. It could be that it is your view of what a church should look like is skewed, but that’s a discussion for a later time.
I have some questions. You quoted 1 Cor. 1:17. Could you please do something for me? Could you read that passage in context, beginning with verse 10? Why did Paul say in verse 14-15 that he was glad he hadn’t baptized none of them but Crispus and Gaius? Did he ever say baptism wasn’t necessary?
You suggest that water baptism is necessary. Necessary for what, exactly? It's not necessary for eternal salvation. I would agree with the continuing practice of water baptism as an ordinance, insofar as Peter commanded the Gentiles be baptized in water after they'd already received the Spirit. Could a refusal of water baptism count against a believer at the judgment seat of Christ? Possibly, though I'm not aware of any scriptural support for that idea. I'm sure it depends on one's motivations. The scripture advises the people of God to "come out of her" (Rev 18:4)--that is, most surely, the false church system of this day (note the plurality in Rev 17:5, harlots & abominations)--so I would take that advice over remaining in an apostate congregation for the sake of being baptized in water.
But, in any event, it has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Paul's statement that he was not sent to baptize stands on its own. The particular issue in context--factions among the Corinthians--does not change the nature of this statement, because this is a more general statement that Paul made in response to a particular issue. He was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
Finally, the "church" (singular) is the body of Christ. From Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[...]
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
This is what the gates of hell will not prevail against. That is, Jesus Christ WILL save each and every last one of His sheep, and will lose zero of His sheep (John 10:27-29). Not a single one of His bones was broken.
I have heard many say that baptism is a “work.” How is something Jesus commanded a work? How can it be considered “works based salvation?” Can someone give Scriptural support for this teaching? Thanks in advance.
Read the gospel of grace at 1COR15:1-4 you will see no baptism required there only faith..........
The ritual of water baptism is the symbol of joining with an earthly community to learn from them their doctrines, rituals they have received from their “fathers”....... but for some at some stage they progress past that “earthly” state
From a Scriptural standpoint the Lord adds those who have been baptized to His church (Acts 2:41,47). I’m not sure where you come up with your conclusion that baptism is a symbol of “joining” with an earthly community. The Lord’s church is not something we can “join.” Your thoughts?
From a Scriptural standpoint the Lord adds those who have been baptized to His church (Acts 2:41,47). I’m not sure where you come up with your conclusion that baptism is a symbol of “joining” with an earthly community. The Lord’s church is not something we can “join.” Your thoughts?
My thoughts are all over the forum
I see a lot of timing, layering, seasonality, etc embedded in the Scriptures and we can not individually know everything - either personally or denominationally
Mat 6:9**After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10**Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11**Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12**And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13**And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14**For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15**But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
The various denominations all have a part by design
Gal 3:24**Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25**But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26**For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27**For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28**There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29**And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Eph 4:3**Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4**There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5**One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6**One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7**But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Last edited by Meerkat2; 10-21-2021 at 04:20 PM..
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