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But those are the very ones that Jesus came to save
Luk 5:30**But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
Luk 5:31**And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
Luk 5:32**I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luk 19:9**And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luk 19:10**For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
I believe you are looking at things from the lower/earthly/religious perspective which you are certainly entitled to do
What I see/perceive is a higher/spiritual perspective as well
I agree with what you said to Rob that it can get pointless trying to convince each other once we have put forward our opinions to each other, it does get to be a bit of an impasse - what I believe in is sharing rather than forcing
You asked a question. I gave you the very words of Jesus in answer to your question. He said you must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven.
A lower/earthly perspective? I gave you an answer straight from the Scriptures. How is that a lowly/earthly perspective? You seem determined to argue about nothing. If we can’t even agree of the very words of Jesus, then what’s left?
Last edited by MissKate12; 10-26-2021 at 05:50 AM..
Salvation is a condition when a certain human Consciousness Self reaches ability to penetrate highest stages of spiritual life through very narrow gate - 'filter'.
" true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Jesus is such example of a Human Being Who achieved such stage. So all could follow Jesus's example. "among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away."
God's offer of salvation is open to all. We are free to either cooperate with it or reject it.
God's saving work is not dependent upon our actions. Rather, we are responsible to cooperate with God's saving work.
Weird how Jesus himself said that those the Father gives to him, he will save. Doesn't mention the ones that freely choose to come to him of their own accord.
And in John 1:12-13 we're told that it's of God's will, not man. And many many other places tell us that God saves us. He doesn't sit around and wait for us to call on him like he's a teenage girl waiting to be invited to Prom.
Weird how Jesus himself said that those the Father gives to him, he will save. Doesn't mention the ones that freely choose to come to him of their own accord.
And in John 1:12-13 we're told that it's of God's will, not man. And many many other places tell us that God saves us. He doesn't sit around and wait for us to call on him like he's a teenage girl waiting to be invited to Prom.
If anyone chooses to come to Christ, it is only through God's grace that they are able or *moved* to do so.
If anyone chooses to come to Christ, it is only through God's grace that they are able or *moved* to do so.
Yes. That's actually the Reformed position. All are sinners, and it's God that regenerates and changes the heart. The natural thing to do once sin no longer clouds one's judgment is to run to the savior.
You asked a question. I gave you the very words of Jesus in answer to your question. He said you must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven.
A lower/earthly perspective? I gave you an answer straight from the Scriptures. How is that a lowly/earthly perspective? You seem determined to argue about nothing. If we can’t even agree of the very words of Jesus, then what’s left?
There is development and processes inherent in the Scriptures, I am not trying to put you down and I’m sorry its coming across that way
I am trying to look at the purpose, and the point of the Scriptures in the broader context .... that is my focus
Yes. That's actually the Reformed position. All are sinners, and it's God that regenerates and changes the heart. The natural thing to do once sin no longer clouds one's judgment is to run to the savior.
The Catholic Church teaches predestination and election as well; but our take on it does not preclude free will, which we also believe in.
The Catholic Church teaches predestination and election as well; but our take on it does not preclude free will, which we also believe in.
Yep, I agree mike Even though I’m not a Roman catholic or Protestant, (I was raised in a Pentecostal church but I am now “homeless”) I believe in both these things too
there is a need to have a balanced view, both personally and collectively, as there are many parts and they are to work together in certain ways - the left/right, the above/below, the inner/outer, these things have relativity to each other in any living being/organism
Yep, I agree mike Even though I’m not a Roman catholic or Protestant, (I was raised in a Pentecostal church but I am now “homeless”) I believe in both these things too
there is a need to have a balanced view, both personally and collectively, as there are many parts and they are to work together in certain ways - the left/right, the above/below, the inner/outer, these things have relativity to each other
One thing I began to notice about Protestantism years ago as I was beginning to investigate Catholicism is that its systems tend to create false or unnecessary dichotomies where there need not be one.
The most obvious examples being: faith and works, predestination and free will.
One thing I began to notice about Protestantism years ago as I was beginning to investigate Catholicism is that it tends to create false or unnecessary dichotomies where there need not be one.
The most obvious examples being: faith and works, predestination and free will.
But we are told in many parts of Scripture that there was to be this dividing, separation, scattering..... and the gathering together....all for the higher purpose
Hos 6:1**Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2**After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3**Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
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