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You don't understand what James was saying. James was writing to people who were already believers and already eternally saved. He was simply saying that without works your spiritual life as a Christian is non-productive. He was not saying that without works you aren't saved in terms of eternal salvation. He was saying that a faith accompanied by works will save the believer from a non-productive spiritual life.
No works of any sort performed by a person can result in eternal salvation. Faith plus works (of any sort) for eternal salvation is contrary to salvation by grace through faith. Period.
See my next post to you
Last edited by MissKate12; 10-25-2021 at 05:24 AM..
Reason: Spelling
You don't understand what James was saying. James was writing to people who were already believers and already eternally saved. He was simply saying that without works your spiritual life as a Christian is non-productive. He was not saying that without works you aren't saved in terms of eternal salvation. He was saying that a faith accompanied by works will save the believer from a non-productive spiritual life.
No works of any sort performed by a person can result in eternal salvation. Faith plus works (of any sort) for eternal salvation is contrary to salvation by grace through faith. Period.
Hello Michael. Thank you for your response. You say James was writing to believers, but then you say those same believers will be saved eternally even without works. Yet James says if works don’t accompany faith, then that faith is worthless, dead. That is what James is saying. There is no faith without works. Period. We know that without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) So how can you possibly think these believers are saved if they don’t have works? What does death faith mean to you?
The question is asked in James 2:14, “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have any works? Can faith save him?” Salvation is in view here! As you yourself pointed out, James is speaking to believers here. In verse 19, he says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble! James is saying a man who has faith but has no works is no better off than the demons. The demons believe also.
Repentance, confessing Jesus before men and baptism are responses to faith. They are works commanded by the Savior. Jesus said unless you repent you will likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5). God, Himself called the act of repentance works. “Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that he had said he would bring upon them, and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:10)
Whether or not I have been baptized into water doesn't matter. I have been baptized into the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures matter.
I have done my study on the Scripture. I gave you the verses... which you really haven't commented upon - you just move on to another angle and tell me to study more. Study what? The Scriptures haven't changed.
Regarding the eunuch (not Philip)... there is absolutely evidence that the eunuch was baptized in the Spirit - and this was his confession of Christ. No Spirit... no confession of Christ. Again - I gave you the verses.
Noah wasn't baptized. Noah was saved by his faith and obedience through the water. I didn't ignore the fact the baptism saves. I never have. It's just not baptism into water. You can say it 1,000 different ways. Immersion in water does nothing with regards to salvation. The baptism that saves is into the Father, Son, and Spirit, and is a spiritual immersion - not physical.
I haven’t ignored the Scriptures you posted. I agreed with you. John baptized with water. Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. What I don’t agree with is baptism with the Holy Spirit has replaced baptism in water. As I pointed out to you, there are ONLY two instances in the entire NT of baptism with the Holy Spirit: the Apostles on the day of Pentecost and at the house of Cornelius.
I don’t question whether you study. I’m sure you do, but it’s obvious to me you have not thoroughly studied all aspects of the work of the Holy Spirit. You don’t seem to understand that being filled with the Holy Spirit doesn’t necessarily mean being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Why didn’t you respond to Scriptures I posted? I quoted Romans 10:17. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit is the author of Scripture. He causes us to believe and to confess Jesus is Lord. Phillip preached JESUS to the eunuch. The eunuch believed. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The eunuch saw a body of water and asked Phillip what was stopping him from being baptized. Phillip said if you believe, you may. That’s when the eunuch said he believed Jesus is the Son of God. He had been led by the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE WORD. This is what is meant by no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. But you run with that verse and others like it and claim this is baptism with the Holy Spirit. It’s not.
Of course Noah wasn’t baptized. Who said he was? Peter said the eight were saved through water. Peter says this corresponds to baptism which now saves you. Nothing is mentioned about baptism with the Holy Spirit, but there’s no denying that the water Noah was saved through is a like figure or anti type of baptism in water.
I haven’t ignored the Scriptures you posted. I agreed with you. John baptized with water. Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. What I don’t agree with is baptism with the Holy Spirit has replaced baptism in water. As I pointed out to you, there are ONLY two instances in the entire NT of baptism with the Holy Spirit: the Apostles on the day of Pentecost and at the house of Cornelius.
That's not true. You are not understanding what it means to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. You think you need to see something or experience something in order for it to exist. Baptism into the Holy Spirit is not visual. The only way we know that it has occurred is through the outward expressions from the people who have been baptized. But it should be understood that EVERY believer has been baptized into the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
What are the outward expressions? It is this.
1 Corinthians 12:3b - no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
The outward manifestations are also the expressions of the spiritual gifts mentioned in the following verses mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11.
You mention two instances of baptisms of the Holy Spirit. I say that they are instances that are explained - and there's four, not two. Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit as it says the Spirit descended as a dove. And then Acts 2, 10, and 19.
I do want to ask this regarding Acts 2. Where's the water? Go through the whole scenario in Acts 1 and 2. They are locked in the upper room in Jerusalem. Acts 2:2 - they are still in the house when the Holy Spirit comes. People heard the noise and approached the house where they were. The disciples spoke (outside of the house) the gospel in different languages.... Peter gave his sermon. You get down to verse 41 and 3000 were baptized. Where's the water? How would they have the time and resources to immerse in water 3,000 people? Do you understand how large of an undertaking that would be?
This was a mass baptism of the Holy Spirit - which can take place in an instant. Peter links what happened in Acts 2 to what Cornelius when through in Acts 10 - because the Jews were mad that he went to the Gentiles, and they received the Spirit.
Acts 11:15-18 - And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
There is no mention of water. Peter quotes what Jesus said in Acts 1:4-5. And when Peter refers Cornelius and family getting the same gift as us - the "us" is Peter, the disciples, and the 3000 others who were baptized into the Spirit, which all happened on that day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
I don’t question whether you study. I’m sure you do, but it’s obvious to me you have not thoroughly studied all aspects of the work of the Holy Spirit. You don’t seem to understand that being filled with the Holy Spirit doesn’t necessarily mean being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
You need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to have the opportunity to be filled by the Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Why didn’t you respond to Scriptures I posted? I quoted Romans 10:17. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit is the author of Scripture. He causes us to believe and to confess Jesus is Lord. Phillip preached JESUS to the eunuch. The eunuch believed. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The eunuch saw a body of water and asked Phillip what was stopping him from being baptized. Phillip said if you believe, you may. That’s when the eunuch said he believed Jesus is the Son of God. He had been led by the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE WORD. This is what is meant by no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. But you run with that verse and others like it and claim this is baptism with the Holy Spirit. It’s not.
I responded with Acts 8:36-37 and noted that eunuch's confession of Christ was evidence that he had been baptized in the Holy Spirit. He heard what Philip taught, and believed. He was sent the Holy Spirit and made the confession of Christ before touching any water. Again - 1 Cor 12:3 - the eunuch can't make that confession without the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Of course Noah wasn’t baptized. Who said he was? Peter said the eight were saved through water. Peter says this corresponds to baptism which now saves you. Nothing is mentioned about baptism with the Holy Spirit, but there’s no denying that the water Noah was saved through is a like figure or anti type of baptism in water.
The verse says baptism now saves you. What does the verse say about what that baptism is? It is a spiritual sprinkling of the conscience. That's what saves people.
Hello Michael. Thank you for your response. You say James was writing to believers, but then you say those same believers will be saved eternally even without works. Yet James says if works don’t accompany faith, then that faith is worthless, dead. That is what James is saying. There is no faith without works. Period. We know that without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) So how can you possibly think these believers are saved if they don’t have works? What does death faith mean to you?
The question is asked in James 2:14, “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have any works? Can faith save him?” Salvation is in view here! As you yourself pointed out, James is speaking to believers here. In verse 19, he says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble! James is saying a man who has faith but has no works is no better off than the demons. The demons believe also.
Repentance, confessing Jesus before men and baptism are responses to faith. They are works commanded by the Savior. Jesus said unless you repent you will likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5). God, Himself called the act of repentance works. “Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that he had said he would bring upon them, and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:10)
I look forward to your response.
Blessings,
Kate
James did not say that there is no faith without works. As I've already stated, James' 'dead faith' is simply a reference to the believer having a non-productive spiritual life. A believer with a 'dead faith' is still a believer, he has been eternally saved, but as far as his spiritual life during his time on earth is concerned he is not having a productive spiritual life.
I have also already explained James 2:19 to you as well.
And the only work of God that one has to do with regard to eternal salvation is to believe in Christ Jesus as Jesus himself said in John 6:29.
That's not true. You are not understanding what it means to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. You think you need to see something or experience something in order for it to exist. Baptism into the Holy Spirit is not visual. The only way we know that it has occurred is through the outward expressions from the people who have been baptized. But it should be understood that EVERY believer has been baptized into the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
What are the outward expressions? It is this.
1 Corinthians 12:3b - no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
The outward manifestations are also the expressions of the spiritual gifts mentioned in the following verses mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11.
You mention two instances of baptisms of the Holy Spirit. I say that they are instances that are explained - and there's four, not two. Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit as it says the Spirit descended as a dove. And then Acts 2, 10, and 19.
I do want to ask this regarding Acts 2. Where's the water? Go through the whole scenario in Acts 1 and 2. They are locked in the upper room in Jerusalem. Acts 2:2 - they are still in the house when the Holy Spirit comes. People heard the noise and approached the house where they were. The disciples spoke (outside of the house) the gospel in different languages.... Peter gave his sermon. You get down to verse 41 and 3000 were baptized. Where's the water? How would they have the time and resources to immerse in water 3,000 people? Do you understand how large of an undertaking that would be?
This was a mass baptism of the Holy Spirit - which can take place in an instant. Peter links what happened in Acts 2 to what Cornelius when through in Acts 10 - because the Jews were mad that he went to the Gentiles, and they received the Spirit.
Acts 11:15-18 - And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
There is no mention of water. Peter quotes what Jesus said in Acts 1:4-5. And when Peter refers Cornelius and family getting the same gift as us - the "us" is Peter, the disciples, and the 3000 others who were baptized into the Spirit, which all happened on that day.
You need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to have the opportunity to be filled by the Spirit.
I responded with Acts 8:36-37 and noted that eunuch's confession of Christ was evidence that he had been baptized in the Holy Spirit. He heard what Philip taught, and believed. He was sent the Holy Spirit and made the confession of Christ before touching any water. Again - 1 Cor 12:3 - the eunuch can't make that confession without the Holy Spirit.
The verse says baptism now saves you. What does the verse say about what that baptism is? It is a spiritual sprinkling of the conscience. That's what saves people.
We are at an impasse. Nothing either of us write will make a difference. Time to move on.
So In your opinion what happens to unbaptised people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
They are lost. Unless one is born again of water and the Spirit, they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
Oh, good grief. Read post 159 of this thread.
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Read post 159 of this thread.
