God Made Me Gay (dogma, Jesus Christ, homosexuals, verses)
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I see the pure Word being preached today, and Jesus confirms it with mighty miracles like He did when He walked among men; the deaf are speaking; the dumb are talking, the lame walk; AIDS is being healed.
(Luke 7:22) Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
(John 14:12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
You didn't answer my questions. I didn't ask for scripture, I asked you some direct questions. I want answers to them, not some other form of evasion.
Why would anyone waste time preaching something they don't get behind and live by? Christianty= do as I say, not as I do.
Don't you think if the word is good enough to preach, it should be good enough to abide?
Since you are an athiest, then you don't have to listen to us preach that gospel. How's that? Christians, who know the WORD of God, aren't to force our beliefs on you or anyone, nor judge anyone either. If you are saying how some zealous Christians behave in regard to do as I say, not as I do, then God is going to deal with them as well. As a christian myself, I believe the bible, and I try to as humanly possible be as obedient to it--nothing more or less. If you don't want to hear the gospel's message, then you have every right to reject it, all I am required to do is just dust my feet and move on to the next person. Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If anyone here had taken the time to research the verse in context (directly between two verses about pagan idolatrous worshipping practices) and knew anything at all about the historical culture of the Canaanites (which anyone can see the chapter is referring to if they read the opening verses), it's obvious that the verse is not referring to homosexuality, but a specific same-sex religious practice common at the time in which the chapters were written.
The specific practice is an idolatrous worshiping ritual where male sacred temple prostitutes would dress as a female goddess (like Astoreth) and men would have sex with them to worship the fertility gods. (as with a woman). The Hebrew word "zachar" (translated into English as "male") was most often used to describe a male who was involved in some sort of ritualistic or sacred duties, not just any ordinary "male".
Hmmm....so God was only warning the ment not to have sex with the men during these idol-worshiping rituals....it was still ok to have it with the women during the ritual? Because if you logically follow your reasoning, that's where you end up.
Here are the verses you are saying we should examine in context:
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. 5Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD. 6None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. 11The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness. 18Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. 19Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. 22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled 28That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 30Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
It appears to me that the whole chapter is simply about sexual sins, not just sexual sins involved in idol-worshiping rituals. Uncovering nakedness of your kinfolk? Is that part of an ancient Canaanite idol-worshiping ritual also? Having sex with your neighbor's wife? I think not. These are all simply abominations in any situation, including men lying with men as with a woman.
The academic nonsense that when Scripture speaks of homosexuality and lesbianism it is really talking about something else has been espoused for less than forty years or thereabouts. It is such special pleading, pretending to read between the lines while refusing to read the lines themselves!
When Ezekiel talks about Samaria, the other southern half of what had been Israel in the days through the first three kings of Israel, he says it is Jerusalem's older sister. It went into captivity about one hundred years before Israel and Jerusalem, the northern half. It was said to Jerusalem, you were, "...corrupted more than they in all thy ways." (vs.47) Your, "...sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they" (vs.52) justified them by comparison. Historically the only thing different with the wickedness Israel practised when she took up the abominable religions of Samaria and Sodom was "homosexual" prostitution as worship.
Ezekiel 16:44-63 (AV)...
44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.
45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand,is Sodom and her daughters.
47 Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.
48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,
57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.
58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.
59 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.
Mercy is promised her in the end
60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: am
63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
Just as Eve was fooled by the devil, you too haven fallen for his same deceit. The devil even tried to use scripture on Jesus, but Jesus did not entertain his lies.
Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, the men wanted to have sex with the angles of the Lord. This city had become wicked and perverse, and it was judged.
Genesis 19
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Did you ever notice that there is no condemnation in the bible for what Lot did to his 2 girls. What a great dad! What a great man of god! He prevented the terrible sin of gay sex but condoned gang rape of his own daughters! Now remember, it is written in the good book so it MUST be okay, right? This is one OT example I think is an example of what NOT to do.
Did you ever notice that there is no condemnation in the bible for what Lot did to his 2 girls. What a great dad! What a great man of god! He prevented the terrible sin of gay sex but condoned gang rape of his own daughters! Now remember, it is written in the good book so it MUST be okay, right? This is one OT example I think is an example of what NOT to do.
Well Lot did lose his wife when she turned into a pillow of salt. Not everything in the Bible is condoned by God Some things are there as a record of what was happening in that time period.
Did you ever notice that there is no condemnation in the bible for what Lot did to his 2 girls. What a great dad! What a great man of god! He prevented the terrible sin of gay sex but condoned gang rape of his own daughters! Now remember, it is written in the good book so it MUST be okay, right? This is one OT example I think is an example of what NOT to do.
Lot didn't do anything to his two girls. His daughters did it to him. He was passed out drunk ... Literally the two daughters date raped him.
gen 19:31-35
"And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose."
Did you ever notice that there is no condemnation in the bible for what Lot did to his 2 girls. What a great dad! What a great man of god! He prevented the terrible sin of gay sex but condoned gang rape of his own daughters! Now remember, it is written in the good book so it MUST be okay, right? This is one OT example I think is an example of what NOT to do.
Oh, i thought you were referring to the incest things ... I guess i should pay a little more attention ... Please excuse me.
Hmmm....so God was only warning the ment not to have sex with the men during these idol-worshiping rituals....it was still ok to have it with the women during the ritual? Because if you logically follow your reasoning, that's where you end up.
Here are the verses you are saying we should examine in context:
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. 5Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD. 6None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. 11The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness. 18Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. 19Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. 22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled 28That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 30Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
It appears to me that the whole chapter is simply about sexual sins, not just sexual sins involved in idol-worshiping rituals. Uncovering nakedness of your kinfolk? Is that part of an ancient Canaanite idol-worshiping ritual also? Having sex with your neighbor's wife? I think not. These are all simply abominations in any situation, including men lying with men as with a woman.
There is a matching prohibition in Deut 23:17 about both male and female temple prostitutes. All the prohibitions in Lev 18 were repeated in Lev 20 and all the prohibitions in Lev 20 with death penalties were repeated in Deuteronomy EXCEPT for the one about a "man lying with a male ("zachar"-which means a male who performs sacred or special duties) as with a woman". The only matching verse to be found in Deuteronomy is 23:17.
In Lev 18, there is a breakpause after the sexual relationship prohibitions where there is a verse (verse 21) about sacrificing children to the fires of Molech. The Canaanites literally sacrificed babies by burning them in the arms of a bronze statue of the god Molech. It continues with "neither shalt thou profane the Lord thy God. I am the Lord." This is about Idolatry and a prohibition against worshipping pagan gods using the religious practices of the Canaanites. The same with verse 22 about worshipping pagan gods with male temple prostitutes and with verse 23 which refers to the practice of having sex with animals in pagan shrines to worship the pagan fertility gods. (As practiced by the Egyptians where the Israelites had come from.) Take note about when the text says "I am the Lord" throughout all the Holiness Code chapters of Leviticus, it usually signifies a pause or summation, or a change of direction in the text and to reinforce something important.
It's all there if you actually study the original language used and the cultural and religious practices of the Canaanites and Egyptians
of the times when the texts were written and cross reference the verses with the matching verses in Deuteronomy.
If you read Leviticus 19, you'll also see that there is no prohibition about a man having sex with his slave women, only with OTHER men's slave women. In that case, a man had to take a purified ram to the local priest to sacrifice to the Lord to make amends.
Last edited by Ceist; 06-22-2009 at 06:35 AM..
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Some things are there as a record of what was happening in that time period.
Please excuse me.
