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The natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit of God, gift or no ...
He considers them to be foolishness.
1Cr 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Until you are born of the spirit you cannot receive the gift of salvation. After you are born of the spirit you receive the gift of salvation, not the other way around. How can someone receive the gift of salvation when they cant even understand what it is?
1 Tim 2:4 announces Gods will. It pleases him to save all men ... And Gods word Accomplishes all that he desires and will not return empty.
Isa 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
So what? This has nothing to do with 1 Tim 2:4. That verse is about the partition removed. Not only delfection, but you are out of context again!
Secondly Isa 55,.....Chap 54...For the LORD hath called thee as a woman (Israel) forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God..................Chap 55 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
To return to the Lord, a man, he is reborn in the spirit. ...wicked Israelite!!!!!!
You are so out of context it isn't funny.
You should read 1 Cor 3, over and over again, because it is that very prologue, that deals with the false teachings of the Christians, and the results of it thereof. Good grief!
So what? This has nothing to do with 1 Tim 2:4. That verse is about the partition removed. Not only delfection, but you are out of context again!
Secondly Isa 55,.....Chap 54...For the LORD hath called thee as a woman (Israel) forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God..................Chap 55 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
To return to the Lord, a man, he is reborn in the spirit. ...wicked Israelite!!!!!!
You are so out of context it isn't funny.
You should read 1 Cor 3, over and over again, because it is that very prologue, that deals with the false teachings of the Christians, and the results of it thereof. Good grief!
No sir, what i said has everything to do with it ...
1 Tim 4:10 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You are just unable to understand that it does at this time ...
You said ...
Quote:
What is a gift, if it is not recieved?
To which i replied by quoting 1Cr 2:14, showing that a man cannot receive the gift of salvation until they first have the flesh destroyed and are born again in the spirit. 1 Tim 2:4 plainly states that God will have all people be saved. So the only reason why some do not recieve salvation at this time is because they cannot because God has not yet renewed them in the spirit, but since the scriptures say God will have all be saved, we understand that one day all men will be renewed in the spirit in this life or after ... Even as it is written ...
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Cr 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
The destruction that comes upon the wicked through judgment is only for the salvation of the spirit in the end.
So that 1 Tim 4:10 is actually true and not just God wishfully thinking.
1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God
"might" is not anywhere in the text BTW
εἰδῶμεν - might know - to perceive
There is no Future Subjunctive or Future Perfect Subjunctive also, so it is a present awareness, already known to Paul.
It appears we in Christ, have already received ......
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the gift of salvation ......and born again in the spirit.
No sir, what i said has everything to do with it ...
1 Tim 4:10 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You are just unable to understand that it does at this time ...
You said ...
To which i replied by quoting 1Cr 2:14, showing that a man cannot receive the gift of salvation until they first have the flesh destroyed and are born again in the spirit. 1 Tim 2:4 plainly states that God will have all people be saved. So the only reason why some do not recieve salvation at this time is because they cannot because God has not yet renewed them in the spirit, but since the scriptures say God will have all be saved, we understand that one day all men will be renewed in the spirit in this life or after ... Even as it is written ...
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Cr 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
The destruction that comes upon the wicked through judgment is only for the salvation of the spirit in the end.
So that 1 Tim 4:10 is actually true and not just God wishfully thinking.
Who will have all men to be saved is not what is being said in the greek scripture, the word desired is and should be translated from the scripture.
So, my question, is we see in Hosea 6:6 where God desired mercy and people to come into the knowledge of Him, it is safe to say this is what He wanted right, not a dream. So, as we see here this is what He wanted, but we see this is not what the people are giving Him, even though this was His desire.
So, in Hosea 6:6 where this is what God desired, but yet you see God turning around and rebuking them for doing everything but what he desired, how do you explain His desire here and Him not getting His desire. Verses I Timothy 2:4 where God desires all men to be saved. You are saying just because God desires all men to be saved, then surely just because He desire the mercy from the people it would have happened, but we see differently from scripture.
Explain how you can say desire mean that He will do it, verses his desire for mercy and didn't do it?
Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Mercy here has been translated from the word hesed, meaning loyalty, loyal love. God desired loyalty but as you see even up until the death of some people, this has not been so for all of the people.
It's not that God can't make His desire come to pass, the fault we are seeing in Hosea, is that the people were unwilling to give God is desire, no fault from God. I see the same, in God desiring all men to be saved. God is not at fault, people are the one who are in error and reject coming to the one who has the desire. Surely God could have made the people give Him what He wanted in Hosea, but God doesn't work like that, we have a choice, just what is being seen in Hosea.
So, by you saying just because God desires all men to be saved, then explain to me how you see God desiring in Hosea, but not forcing the people to give Him what He desired? Surely God would have made it happen, as you are saying, He will do in 1 timothy.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 02-14-2010 at 09:47 PM..
Specially of those that believe - This is evidently designed to limit the previous remark. If it had been left there, it might have been inferred that he would "actually save" all people. But the apostle held no such doctrine, and he here teaches that salvation is "actually" limited to those who believe. This is the speciality or the uniqueness in the salvation of those who actually reach heaven, that they are "believers;" see the notes on Mar_16:16. All people, therefore, do not enter heaven, unless all people have faith. But is this so? What evidence is there that the great mass of mankind die believing on the Son of God?
Your post was very understandable until I got to this paragraph.. How do you come to think that "specially" denotes uniqueness in salvation?
Others have posted these as well but just to reiterate:
Acts 25:26 But I have nothing definite to write to His Majesty about him. Therefore I have brought him before all of you, and especially before you, King Agrippa, so that as a result of this investigation I may have something to write.
So really it is not all of them just King Agrippa.. right?
Philemon 1:16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord.
Here is it only "me"?
Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
Only circumcised people? How about including them?
There are many more examples and not once is it used as you say.
ALL, specially believers means: ALL Men including believers.
Who will have all men to be saved is not what is being said in the greek scripture, the word desired is and should be translated from the scripture.
So, my question, is we see in Hosea 6:6 where God desired mercy and people to come into the knowledge of Him, it is safe to say this is what He wanted right, not a dream. So, as we see here this is what He wanted, but we see this is not what the people are giving Him, even though this was His desire.
So, in Hosea 6:6 where this is what God desired, but yet you see God turning around and rebuking them for doing everything but what he desired, how do you explain His desire here and Him not getting His desire. Verses I Timothy 2:4 where God desires all men to be saved. You are saying just because God desires all men to be saved, then surely just because He desire the mercy from the people it would have happened, but we see differently from scripture.
Explain how you can say desire mean that He will do it, verses his desire for mercy and didn't do it?
Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Mercy here has been translated from the word hesed, meaning loyalty, loyal love. God desired loyalty but as you see even up until the death of some people, this has not been so for all of the people.
It's not that God can't make His desire come to pass, the fault we are seeing in Hosea, is that the people were unwilling to give God is desire, no fault from God. I see the same, in God desiring all men to be saved. God is not at fault, people are the one who are in error and reject coming to the one who has the desire. Surely God could have made the people give Him what He wanted in Hosea, but God doesn't work like that, we have a choice, just what is being seen in Hosea.
So, by you saying just because God desires all men to be saved, then explain to me how you see God desiring in Hosea, but not forcing the people to give Him what He desired? Surely God would have made it happen, as you are saying, He will do in 1 timothy.
If I may....
God desires that he himself give grace to all men.
God desired (in Hosea) for the people to show mercy to each other...
Do you see the difference?
1 Tim. - It is up to God to give grace and salvation to all men and this is what he desires so what is preventing him from doing what he desires? Nothing is. Who cares if they don't want it.. sometimes we give good things to our children whether they like it or not because we,as parents, are in charge just as God is in charge over us.
Hosea -At that time in history, it was up to the people to be merciful to each other. He desires them to have mercy on themselves and others (Love your neighbor as yourself) rather than sacrifice to him. Yet they choose to continue to sacrifice instead. HOWEVER, we see that NOW that the sacrifices are gone. He did indeed do what he desired in both cases.
God desires that he himself give grace to all men.
God desired (in Hosea) for the people to show mercy to each other...
Do you see the difference?
1 Tim. - It is up to God to give grace and salvation to all men and this is what he desires so what is preventing him from doing what he desires? Nothing is. Who cares if they don't want it.. sometimes we give good things to our children whether they like it or not because we,as parents, are in charge just as God is in charge over us.
Hosea -At that time in history, it was up to the people to be merciful to each other. He desires them to have mercy on themselves and others (Love your neighbor as yourself) rather than sacrifice to him. Yet they choose to continue to sacrifice instead. HOWEVER, we see that NOW that the sacrifices are gone. He did indeed do what he desired in both cases.
The problem with your explanation is God is asking for them to show Him mercy, this scripture is not speaking about God asking them to show mercy towards themselves.
If you study the word that mercy was translated from, God was asking the people to show Him hesed (loyalty) towards Him. So, by you saying that God was asking for them to show mercy towards themselves, is not what God was asking, and it seems you misundersood what was being said. So, no I don't see your point.
If you didn't notice, I think you made the mistake and used the english word we know as mercy and didn't understand what was being said in place of hesed from where the word was being translated from.
If you notice, God is saying For I desire mercy and not sacrifice. The mercy God is speaking about can't be talking about what you are referring to as showing mercy towards each other, because they don't make sacrifices to themselves. So, the person who is desiring the mercy in verse 6, wants that instead of sacrifice. So, you see your explanation simply want fit.
What God was desiring hesed from the people instead of sacrifice, this has nothing to do with God asking them to show mercy from themselves.
Quote:
God desired (in Hosea) for the people to show mercy to each other...
Sorry, you are wrong about that. You misunderstood what was being said and seeing something that is not there.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 02-15-2010 at 12:59 AM..
The problem with your explanation is God is asking for them to show Him mercy, this scripture is not speaking about God asking them to show mercy towards themselves.
If you study the word that mercy was translated from, God was asking the people to show Him hesed (loyalty) towards Him. So, by you saying that God was asking for them to show mercy towards themselves, is not what God was asking, and it seems you misundersood what was being said. So, no I don't see your point.
The point is the same regardless of what the word meant. In Hosea the people were to do the action that God desired. They didn't.
In 1 Timothy God was to do the action that God desired. God did. What is to stop him?
Like I said, the point is the same.
God doesn't desire for himself to do something and then not do it.. That seems absurd to me.. don't you agree?
The point is the same regardless of what the word meant. In Hosea the people were to do the action that God desired. They didn't.
In 1 Timothy God was to do the action that God desired. God did. What is to stop him?
Like I said, the point is the same.
God doesn't desire for himself to do something and then not do it.. That seems absurd to me.. don't you agree?
Actually the point is not the same because you have shown that you have misunderstood what was being said.
God is saying that He desired mercy (hesed, loyalty, devotion) instead of sacrifice.
But yet you say God is saying that He desired people to show mercy towards themselves and that is not what He is saying.
You sound snappy, but sorry, if you are saying something instead of what is not there, then no the point is not the same. How can I see the difference when what you are saying is not what is being said in scripture? The point is do you now see what God was asking?
Quote:
God doesn't desire for himself to do something and then not do it.. That seems absurd to me.. don't you agree?
NO, what seems adsurd to me is when you actually say to the person what is actually being said, you say so what, that sounds absurd to me. This is why things get mixed up. I am not trying to point out that you didn't know or understand the word, but pointing out what God was saying or not. Anyway, you can take it or leave it.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 02-15-2010 at 01:12 AM..
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