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I think all of you are missing the point. The Will of 1 Tim 2:4 is not the same will as in the Will and Ordained Decree of God as in Eph 1:11. I have already addressed this. God wants all to be saved, but like I have pointed out several times, is that the context of this very verse? No it isn't. Because of His want and desire for mankind to be saved - σωθῆναι , He had removed the wall between Jew and Gentile, so that "all men without social and racial dinstinction" can acheive the same salvation as the Jew had been given.
Stay in context people.
Sciotamicks -- there is no salvation in being a physical Jew//Israelite -- none of the physical Jews/Israelites are saved by the flesh - salvation is through Jesus.
That's alright Alabama. Precisely why we discuss these things, yet I completely disagree with you, based on the texts, which have survived this long for reasons we are addressing now. The context of 1 Tim 2 has nothing to do with God's Ordained will in any way, however, His defeat of Sin and Death, was indeed ordained and completed in Christ...now that, I believe we can agree on and what He wanted, in 1 Tim 2:4, was already completed, in the work of Christ.
Now everybody, has the chance to be saved - σωθῆναι in Chirst only. That is the message of this verse. No one is limiting anything, as it has already been accomplished. "All" is what the previous defines:
Paul is exhorting them to pray for all men, for kings and for all those in authority. Christianity, in its beginning stages, was made up primarily of slaves and common men. Paul says, "Pray for all men, even kings and rulers, because God will save some of them also."
For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we mayδιάγωμενlead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
"All men" means men of every station in life and racial origin. It is a removal of racial and social distinctions.
I realize you aren't responding to my posts.. which is fine but can anyone else confirm for me that there was salvation available in the OT.. I mean in sciotamicks scenario what changed from Old Covenant to New Covenant.. you just have a shot at salvation?
This would only make sense if NO ONE was ever saved prior to the NT..
OR do you think that the saints of the OT were never saved?
Isaiah 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."
Psalm 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation.
I see that there are some who trusted in the LORD and that they had salvation.. am I missing something here?
What changed? Now we can still do the same thing as the OT guys? Choose the right way to go? Will someone explain this to me??
sciotamicks, you are missing the really important point which is this:
"God will have all mankind to be saved for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim.2:4-6).
"God is operating all according to the counsel of His will" (Eph.1:11).
Since Christ ransomed all, all must be freed. Since God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will and since He wills all mankind to be saved, He is operating all to save all mankind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
I think all of you are missing the point. The Will of 1 Tim 2:4 is not the same will as in the Will and Ordained Decree of God as in Eph 1:11. I have already addressed this. God wants all to be saved, but like I have pointed out several times, is that the context of this very verse? No it isn't. Because of His want and desire for mankind to be saved - σωθῆναι , He had removed the wall between Jew and Gentile, so that "all men without social and racial dinstinction" can acheive the same salvation as the Jew had been given.
Stay in context people.
sciotamicks, the very context is what you are denying. God wants us to "pray and give thanks for all mankind, for kings and all in a superior station for (the reason why this is so) this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved . . . for (the reason why this is so) . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all."
The whole passage is not about what we can achieve as to what the Jew has. The whole passage is what God is going to achieve due to Christ ransoming all mankind.
And since God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will and since Christ ransomed all mankind, God will have all mankind to be saved.
If it said "God wishes He could save all mankind because Christ died for all to allow them to have a crack at saving themselves" you might be correct. But it doesn't say that. It is not about what we can do but about what Christ has done.
I see you must not have done that study on RANSOM I asked you to do. Any human or animal that is ransomed must be freed. The whole Old Testament proves this. There is not one place in the whole Old Testament where a person or animal was ransomed and not freed.
All mankind have been ransomed. This is the silver spike through the heart of the doctrine of God losing the majority of mankind.
Peace,
Tony New Saviour of All Main Page
You are being irresponsible to the context of the passage. I have done extensive studies on the ransom paid for me. Leave that alone. Secondly, lest you forget, Christ fulfilled the Law, not the Talmud, which was precisely what Christ came to destroy, which burdened His people with the weight of pharisaical nonsense. The Talmud is what separated Gentile and Jew, not the law, and it was that law, that Christ fulfilled, so that Jew and Gentile can come together as one under Christ.
That is the messgae of 1 Tim 2:4, no matter how many hurdles you want to go through to prove your point, your still left with the context and the text itself which usurps your entire premise in one stroke.
I realize you aren't responding to my posts.. which is fine but can anyone else confirm for me that there was salvation available in the OT.. I mean in sciotamicks scenario what changed from Old Covenant to New Covenant.. you just have a shot at salvation?
This would only make sense if NO ONE was ever saved prior to the NT..
OR do you think that the saints of the OT were never saved?
Isaiah 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."
Psalm 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation.
I see that there are some who trusted in the LORD and that they had salvation.. am I missing something here?
What changed? Now we can still do the same thing as the OT guys? Choose the right way to go? Will someone explain this to me??
What I believe is it was a future salvation in Christ,
Please no universalism-this is a thread about some will be lost
"4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
This verse always bothered me when I was a kid. If God desires that all are to be saved, then why aren't all saved?
Maybe the question we need to be focusing on is what is means to be saved and what it means to be lost. Let me run an analogy by you. Granted, no analogy is perfect, so I'm going to ask you not to just pick this one to pieces for the sake of being right. Just give it some thought...
Let's say there is a man on death row. He is afraid because he knows he has been sentenced to die and the time is quickly approaching. Then, just hours before he is to be put to death, the governor issues a stay of execution. The man sees his life as being spared. In his mind, he was "saved" from what he sees as the worst possible fate. As it turns out, he never is executed. He ends up dying of natural causes in prison years later. Was he really "saved"? He was never again a free man. He spent most of his life in prison and was never allowed to live the kind of life he'd be able to have on the outside. Maybe he wasn't "saved" at all.
I believe that Jesus Christ's Atonement guarantees that all will be "saved" from the permanance of death. I believe it guarantees that all except those few who commit what the Bible describes as the only unpardonable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) will be saved from eternal torment. That means that most will, in fact, receive some measure of God's glory, just not all of the glory they might have received had they lived differently. Jesus did say, if you will recall, that He will judge all men "according to their works." Where there is greater righteousness, there will be a greater reward. Maybe only a very few will receive the full measure of salvation that God has promised we could possibly attain. But, like the man on death row whose life was "saved," the others may end up feeling quite "saved" after all, based on where they could have ended up.
You are being irresponsible to the context of the passage. I have done extensive studies on the ransom paid for me. Leave that alone. Secondly, lest you forget, Christ fulfilled the Law, not the Talmud, which was precisely what Christ came to destroy, which burdened His people with the weight of pharisaical nonsense. The Talmud is what separated Gentile and Jew, not the law, and it was that law, that Christ fulfilled, so that Jew and Gentile can come together as one under Christ.
That is the messgae of 1 Tim 2:4, no matter how many hurdles you want to go through to prove your point, your still left with the context and the text itself which usurps your entire premise in one stroke.
Sorry but you can't take a passage in another epistle (Ephesians) which talks about the body of Christ being composed of Jew and Gentile believers and import that truth into 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and tell us that is what Paul was talking about! No wonder you have problems understanding Scripture! It would be better for you to quote Romans 5:18 and 19 and say that due to what Christ did all mankind will be made righteous and have their lives justified and that this is what 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is all about!
If you did study "ransom" in the Old Testament" and truly understood the ramifications of it you would know there is only one possible outcome for the ransom made in the New Testament: Those who are ransomed must be freed! No ifs ands or buts about it.
"God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6). All mankind have been ransomed therefore the only outcome is that all mankind must be saved.
Sorry but you can't take a passage in another epistle (Ephesians) which talks about the body of Christ being composed of Jew and Gentile believers and import that truth into 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and tell us that is what Paul was talking about! No wonder you have problems understanding Scripture! It would be better for you to quote Romans 5:18 and 19 and say that due to what Christ did all mankind will be made righteous and have their lives justified and that this is what 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is all about!
I wasn't the one who did it. It was you. I was correcting you. Might want to proofread your own posts next time.
I wasn't the one who did it. It was you. I was correcting you. Might want to proofread your own posts next time.
Here is what you wrote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
Quote:
I think all of you are missing the point. The Will of 1 Tim 2:4 is not the same will as in the Will and Ordained Decree of God as in Eph 1:11. I have already addressed this. God wants all to be saved, but like I have pointed out several times, is that the context of this very verse? No it isn't. Because of His want and desire for mankind to be saved - σωθῆναι , He had removed the wall between Jew and Gentile, so that "all men without social and racial dinstinction" can acheive the same salvation as the Jew had been given. Stay in context people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks Eusebius,
Quote:
You are being irresponsible to the context of the passage. I have done extensive studies on the ransom paid for me. Leave that alone. Secondly, lest you forget, Christ fulfilled the Law, not the Talmud, which was precisely what Christ came to destroy, which burdened His people with the weight of pharisaical nonsense. The Talmud is what separated Gentile and Jew, not the law, and it was that law, that Christ fulfilled, so that Jew and Gentile can come together as one under Christ.
Quote:
That is the messgae of 1 Tim 2:4, no matter how many hurdles you want to go through to prove your point, your still left with the context and the text itself which usurps your entire premise in one stroke.
You are the one that needs to take your own medicine. Remember, "a teaspoon of sugar helps the medicine go down in the most delightful way."
You were the one who imported the idea of Jew and Gentile being one into 1 Timothy 2:4-6 as if that is what Paul was getting at. Gheesh!
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and what He wanted, in 1 Tim 2:4, was already completed, in the work of Christ. 
