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And what's worse is all who believe in UR are evildoers
Twisting God's Word makes you a false teacher, which is sin.
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, because we desire,wish,want and believe God will save all .
You can "desire, wish, want, and believe" whatever you want, but God still doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
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You really couldn't make such an accusation up .
Make what up? I read her quote, and it is true. Here it is again:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry Sin does not glorify God!!! He specifically states He hates it, and it will not enter into His Kingdom...period!
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She has shown her true color's with this statement.
Her true colors are her passion and love to do as God wishes. She is leading others OUT of the fire, but it isn't her, but the Spirit through her. She doesn't and won't take any credit for this.
This line of thinking in the OP always comes to a wall with the following conclusion:
1. God does not want to save all people.
2. Some people will reject God forever.
It always comes down to these two points. Man's free will allows people to choose to reject God forever. Man's will trumps God's desire. And furthermore, after a person dies its too late for God to save someone... in fact God's hands are tied and doesn't even want to save people after death.
But both of these points are soundly defeated by an honest look at scripture. Verna, please examine these scriptures carefully.
1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases.
Here we see God wants all men to be saved. This is His desire. And we also see that God does whatever He pleases - surely His desire to save all men is what He pleases to do?
Does God change? Is God a man? Does God's plan and purpose change?
No, God does not change his mind like a man does. God's plan is unchanging (Heb 6:17, Numbers 23:19). God will achieve what He plans and purposes (Isaiah 46:10-11, Isaiah 55:11).
So when Jesus says "Away from me, I never knew you", why do you now assume that God has all of a sudden changed his mind like a two-faced human, and no longer wants nor desires to save all mankind? Does God change his mind? NO. Does God's plan and purpose change? NO.
Now what about man's free will? Will some of mankind reject Christ forever? No. This blasphemy is destroyed by a single verse (which is verified in Romans 14:11 and Phil 2:9-11).
Isa 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Can you believe what you are reading here Verna? This should end this heretical belief that some will reject Christ forever. It says right here that ALL will swear allegiance to the Lord. God has declared it will happen! Swearing allegiance means this is willing oath of loyalty. If you look at Romans 14:11 and Phil 2:9-11, you will see this is confirmed by examining the greek word "confess", which has meanings of "joyful willing praise and celebratory declaration".
Everyone gladly gives an oath of loyalty to God! The idea that some will reject God forever can be thrown right out the window. God has said ALL will come to him someday.
Now let's do the math:
1. God does desire and will that ALL will be saved.
2. God has declared that all will swear a joyful oath of loyalty to Him.
Now go back and examine the verses in your OP in this new light.
Its good news for ALL people, just like Luke 2:10 says.
These are the FAITHFUL bewailing their calamities...and by the mercies of God they nourish their hope...They acknowledge God's justice, and pray for deliverance. This man is going through much darkness, and in the midst of it all, he is humbled and the remembrance of God is what gives him hope. Context...not one verse.
The context is the "children of men" (v33) their "punishment for sins" (v39) and whether the LORD will "cast off forever" (v31).
The "rod of His wrath" does not come upon the faithful it comes upon the disobedient, nor does God shut out the prayers of the faithful. This was a result of rebellion (v42) not faith. God was fulfilling His word from days of old (2:27). And so "thou hast not pardoned" and "thou hast slain and not pitied" upon them was "fear and a snare" Upon whom does God rain snares?
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
What gives him hope is that he remembers that God's compassion "faileth not" something you do not believe.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 09-25-2009 at 06:58 AM..
Matt 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
God is love.
All things are possible with God.
God never fails & Love covers all wrongs.
God will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth!
This line of thinking in the OP always comes to a wall with the following conclusion:
1. God does not want to save all people.
2. Some people will reject God forever.
It always comes down to these two points. Man's free will allows people to choose to reject God forever. Man's will trumps God's desire. And furthermore, after a person dies its too late for God to save someone... in fact God's hands are tied and doesn't even want to save people after death.
But both of these points are soundly defeated by an honest look at scripture. Verna, please examine these scriptures carefully.
1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases.
Here we see God wants all men to be saved. This is His desire. And we also see that God does whatever He pleases - surely His desire to save all men is what He pleases to do?
Does God change? Is God a man? Does God's plan and purpose change?
No, God does not change his mind like a man does. God's plan is unchanging (Heb 6:17, Numbers 23:19). God will achieve what He plans and purposes (Isaiah 46:10-11, Isaiah 55:11).
So when Jesus says "Away from me, I never knew you", why do you now assume that God has all of a sudden changed his mind like a two-faced human, and no longer wants nor desires to save all mankind? Does God change his mind? NO. Does God's plan and purpose change? NO.
Now what about man's free will? Will some of mankind reject Christ forever? No. This blasphemy is destroyed by a single verse (which is verified in Romans 14:11 and Phil 2:9-11).
Isa 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Can you believe what you are reading here Verna? This should end this heretical belief that some will reject Christ forever. It says right here that ALL will swear allegiance to the Lord. God has declared it will happen! Swearing allegiance means this is willing oath of loyalty. If you look at Romans 14:11 and Phil 2:9-11, you will see this is confirmed by examining the greek word "confess", which has meanings of "joyful willing praise and celebratory declaration".
Everyone gladly gives an oath of loyalty to God! The idea that some will reject God forever can be thrown right out the window. God has said ALL will come to him someday.
Now let's do the math:
1. God does desire and will that ALL will be saved.
2. God has declared that all will swear a joyful oath of loyalty to Him.
Now go back and examine the verses in your OP in this new light.
Its good news for ALL people, just like Luke 2:10 says.
The self righteous cannot bear the thought that God as reconciled the world to Himself(Christ died for sinners) .
Christ came for His Sheep ONLY.
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Does this make the WHOLE world His Sheep? He makes it clear it does not.
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Then what?
"Then the King will say to those on His right(SHEEP), 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
"Then He will also say to those on His left(GOATS), 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
I rest my case. There really is no need to dive further into anything else, is there? Jesus' Word stands on it's own. To say the fire is a temporary punishment, is to say that the devil and his messengers will eventually also be reconciled one day, which I know that a few UR's believe. Of course they have to, otherwise these verses cannot make sense to them. I don't believe people will "live" in the fire for eternity either, because without the Tree of Life, there is just nothing. Death.
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They cannot bear the thought that simple faith in His wonderous grace is simply good enough, they think they don't sin in their own eyes and yet they see sin in in everybody else's life.
You are confusing faith with repentance. Faith in Jesus is what saves the sinner. The sinner heads down the repentant road, not of himself, but with the leading of the Spirit. The Spirit convicts. Does this mean you WILL willfully sin the rest of your life? No. But is does mean that your heart has been changed so that it reflects Christ and the love He has shown us. Trying to lead people out of the fire, by bringing them to the foot of the cross and showing them the love that God has for them.
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They are skillful in deceit wherby they will say "my righteousness is as filthy rags" but their posts deny they believe it when they boast in their own self righteousness and condemn others whose lives do not match up to their own.
Who says this? I only hear the refuting concerning the 10 commandments. Some proclaim this is THE LAW Paul was speaking of, but those who are spiritually discerned know this is not the case. Paul was talking about the "legal" aspects of the law. Moses' laws. The 10 commandments are not Moses law, they are God's Law. Big difference.
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They will quote
And rightfully so!
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"I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me."Psalm 103 : 3
Yes?? Are you contradicting this verse?
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Yet they continually look at sin in the lives of others and preach about it, thus making the word of God of no effect.
I will bet they look at their own filthyness before even talking about others. But they also understand that their unrighteousness is covered by the blood shed by Jesus, and the unsaved sinner does not have this. So they preach the Word, praying that the Spirit will lead them to Jesus.
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They have a closet full of NT doctrines but do not have a clue about infinite grace and the effects of Calvary.
Actually they understand it better than you give them credit for. Because it doesn't resonate with you, does not mean it doesn't with them.
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Any seeker of God whether you believe in ET or not do not be moved or condemned by these posts that are legalistic nonsense.
If they are "moved or condemned" it is by the Spirit. How dare you get in the Spirit's way, you who call yourself a believer. ALL of us have to come into our OWN Truths, led by the Spirit. If we are earnest in our love for God, and seek him with our WHOLE being, He will reveal Himself to us.
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God is for you and not against you , He is working in your life even though what you may see in your flesh you do not like.
Only by the Spirit can we see God is for us. Otherwise, to the carnal man, the entire Bible and the cross is just plain foolishness.
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He loves you so much He will complete that which He started in you , because He's the author and finisher of your faith.
Did, and it is FINISHED. Did you not hear?
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The self righteous have already cleaned their acts up outwardly(whitewash tombs full of dead mens's bones) but nothing yet has happened on the inside yet .
Really? You can now see the hearts of man, by judging them? Wow! Are you called the Christ too?
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Do not be intimidated by them , do not judge their ability to be able to quote scriptures as a sign that they are spiritual, nothing can be further from the truth.
Yea. Anyone can quote scripture. Anyone can read other men's websites, and choose to follow men. Anyone can think they are saved, by a simple 2 step program. Don't believe this crap. Read the WORd for yourselves. Let the Spirit do the WORK IN you. He promised He would, and He will.
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They love digging up the bibles verses about sin and the wicked and then try shoving it down our threats
Yea, we know how much God loves sin, right?
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Never do they compile a list of bible verses referencing the love and grace of God . This fact should tell you all you need to know about them.
Never do they what?
Ok, listen everyone,,,read the ENTIRE NT. It is all about Jesus, and His Love and Grace. He laid His life down for YOU! And not only YOU, but the whole world. But only His Sheep hear His voice. Even if you think to be a goat, as your sin might be so bad that you feel condemned forever, God knows who you are. He can call you, He can lead you, and He can make a NEW creation out of you. This is how much He loves you. This is why He sent His ONLY begotten son to die for you. If only you believe, and use this faith given to you. You will SEE, and HEAR the Spirit revealed. ALL have been given a measure of the Spirit of Faith, so there is none that has an excuse on the day of judgment.
So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them.When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.
Apparently Jesus sees the people differently to you.
We know how much you hate sin , i also know how much God loves the sinner and demonstrated how much while we were yet(still sinners) Christ died for the ungodly .Romans 5 verses 6 - 8
You see sinners, Jesus sees sheep led and gone astray.
We all like sheep have gone astray Isaiah 53.
How you see someone is how you will govern how you act and react to them.
God changed Peter's attitude towards the unclean(you and i) when He said "call nothing unclean He had created" , what was the result of this ? Peter seeing gentiles in a completely different light. Acts chapter 10 and 11 , it will do you know harm to read them by the Spirit.
By the way Hotinaz , this will be my only response to yoiu on this thread , i will let those who have an ear to hear decide for themselves .
Yes, Jesus will accomplish His purpose, but you are leaving out a lot of what else He says that He will do.
Anyway, it's late, and I'm tired. Goodmorning, actually!!!
I did not leave anything out that is pertinent in this issue. We ARE held accountable for what we do. We may suffer gravely due to our accountability. If you wish to discuss the details of how we are held accountable, that is fine, but not one of those details will contradict Jesus purpose or his accomplishment of it to the full measure, 100%.
God sent him for this purpose.
1Jn 4:14 And we' have gazed upon Him, and are testifying that the Father has dispatched the Son, the Saviour of the world.
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G649 apostello ap-os-tel'-lo from G575 and G4724
set apart, i.e. (by implication) to send out (properly, on a mission) literally or figuratively:--put in, send (away, forth, out), set (at liberty).
I am glad you agree that Jesus purpose (mission), Saviour of the world , will be accomplished. I just think we will differ on what that accomplishment actually is. Well, since it is God and not a man with just a theory about his good business plan, I'll side with 100%. You can believe on a smaller scale if you prefer.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Jn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Good. Rest your case then. I'll continue to believe what God comissioned Jesus to be and that he will accomplish it 100% regardless of the case building of men.
I find it interesting that people build THEIR case and assert it to be so crystal clear but then argue that 1 Timothy 2:4 is not as crystal clear.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Oh, but Gee. God just wishes this, it is a very strong desire.
Isa 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'
But that isn't clear, no, it's not clear at all. Obviously the case building of men make it crystal clear that they do not believe a word of that verse.
The fallacy is that anyones biblical case can be made through an assertion of inherant clarity. Well your clarity contridicts mine, there there we have it.
Yeah, build your cases and rest upon them. ZZZZZZZZZ
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