Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No it doesn't....but if I address this, you'll by pass earlier posts like they never existed...like the verses that condemns the unbeliever
twin.spin:
"condemn" does not equal "eternal hell".
Is this like the word "shame"? What about these words:
judgment
punishment
justice
condemnation
Do these words all mean "eternal hell" to you too?
But let me get back to condemnation for a second. I don't want to bypass any verses, so how about this one:
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemnedalready because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Let me ask you this personally twin.spin. At one point in your life, did you ever not believe in Christ? If you answer YES, then you better be careful, because at that time you were condemned already.
What do you think your fate is since you have already been condemned at a past time?
I see your point. But let me ask you - is this some or all:
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
What do you think "every tongue will swear allegiance" means?
It means what it sounds like it means. It means "Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength"
Not in the context as you would have it in Isaiah 45:23. Like I said before (and you refuse to listen) God says such when its in the context of comparing the two. What you do is read the first and ignore the rest. One verse later ....the comparison.
Isaiah 45:24
They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' " these are all who believe All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. these all are who are the unbelievers
Does the second part of that verse need to "blink" for you to read it?
No, we see that part of the passage. Sinners must come to see their sinful state and be confounded by and ashamed of their sin. That is part of repentance and salvation.
Jeremaiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
Ezekiel 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that [were] not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
Ezekiel 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters..... 62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: 63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
Jeremaiah 48:39 They shall howl, saying, How is it broken down! how hath Moab turned the back with shame! so shall Moab be a derision and a dismaying to all them about him.... Jeremaiah 48:47 Yet will I bring again the captivity of Moab in the latter days, saith the LORD. Thus far is the judgment of Moab
The Isaiah passage in question is completely and wholly about salvation of all the ends of the earth. God commanded it and God's word will not return void.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 09-25-2009 at 04:21 PM..
What the heck does this mean? How does this explain the passage?
Quote:
reconcile all things = Jesus paid for all the sins of the world,( that's called objective justification), and you have the choice to reject it.
Reconcile all things = "bring all things into harmony with God."
Reconcile = Greek - apokatallassō 1) to reconcile completely 2) to reconcile back again 3) bring back a former state of harmony
Its handy how you "spin" things though ...
Quote:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" John 3:36
Mistranslation ... Whoever rejects the son of God are the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction by Gods sovereign will and cannot see the life that is in him or they would not reject him. The reason they do not see the life in Christ is because Gods wrath is on them. But God will not always be angry ...
Isa 57:16
For I will not contend forever,
nor will I always be angry;
for the spirit would grow faint before me,
and the breath of life that I made.
See you just have to harmonize scripture. One day God will not be angry with them anymore, they will see the life in Christ, and will repent and bow to Christ and worship him.
Quote:
Reject Christ and you will meet an angry God. That is not my "spin", as Paul said with tears...........many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction" .... in this case "destruction" is forever. When destroyed by God, you're unable to recover.
The old sinful man is destroyed, and the new man is born. It is the same for all things, Jesus promises he will make everything new.
Rev 21:5
And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.”
The believers are being renewed now and receive aionios life which is the life of Christ by knowing God and Christ whom he sent. So the spirit of Christ is within us. The unbelievers have not the life of the spirit of Christ in them in this age, but will be renewed by the judgment of God. They will be saved as though by fire.
1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Quote:
P.S. mocking.....getting to that level.... must be desperation?
Mocking? Just being clever .. All in fun. You talk so much about how we spin things, and look how you spin all these verses which plainly state Christ as the savior of all, who will reconcile all things to himself whether in heaven, or in earth. Whether visible or invisible. I cant help but take you people with a grain of salt. Your murderous and violent threats can only be dealt with adequately by using humor.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-25-2009 at 04:33 PM..
I do not worship hell, I worship God my Father, His Son, my Savior, Jesus Christ, and His Precious Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
...and eternal torturers...
I have stated many, many times that I do not necessarily belive in eternal torment...I lean toward eternal separation...death, meaning dead, forever separated from God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
...fail to explain themselves...
I have never shied away from, or failed to,(in any way) explain myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
...and their false doctrine in many many ways.
The doctrine I am committed to with every breath in me is the Pure Holy Word of our Living God both Living and Written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
They neglect to answer most of the scripture that specifically state God will reconcile all things to himself through Christ.
*** This is a lie, plain and simple. I and others have repeatedly...endlessly answered this with pure, untainted Scripture...nothing added and nothing taken away. When God says He will reconcile all things to Himself, of course he will reconcile all things to Himself, because everything is His to begin with...duh! You can bet your sweet butt He will have EVERYTHING that has knees down on them...the very trunks of trees will bend forth to honor Him...even those who never before even gave God so much as a "belch" will be on their collective knees in respect to Him! This is what He means when he says that He will reconcile all to him...even as they sit forever in the pit of hell itself, if there is a pit in hell...even if they forever burn in a fiery lake, if there is a fiery lake...even if they cursed the name of God their entire life...THEY WILL SIT THERE...OR THEY WILL BURN THERE, KNOWING THERE IS A >>>GREAT<<< <<<BIG >>>POWERFUL<<< >>>AWESOME<<< >>>ALMIGHTY<<< >>>GOD<<< BEFORE THEM...ONLY THEY WILL FOREVER BE SEPARATED FROM HIM>>>FOREVER!<<< EVERYONE WILL BOW BEFORE GOD ALMIGHTY!!! THIS is what these verses mean that you continually use to misguide the unfortunate ones who do not know any better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
I will list the fallacies of eternal torturers argument.
Your false doctrine, and any other doctrine that is taught, other than the pure Word of God, is the only...I repeat, ONLY deceptive doctrine being taught...what you teach is not Biblical Truth, Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
1. Eternal torturers fail to show scriptural evidence for God not being willing to save all people.
I am not necessarily a ET'er, as I've repeatedly stated, over and over again. The Scriptures that are given time and time again, you chop away at, saying that eternity doesn't mean eternity, death doesn't mean death, forever doesn't mean forever, always doesn't mean always, destruction doesn't men destruction, eternal doesn't mean eternal, perish doesn't mean perish, destroy doesn't mean destroy, "...will not enter..." does not mean "...will not enter...", "...keep My commandments if you love Me..." doesn't mean "...keep My commandments if you love Me...", "...repent and sin not..." doesn't mean "...repent and sin not...", "choose life or death..." doesn't mean "choose life or death..", "That no flesh shall glory in His presence..." does not mean "That no flesh shall glory in His presence...", "Be ye holy and without spot as I am holy..." does not mean "Be ye holy and without spot as I am holy...", on and on and on and on and on.....it doesn't end...you all have almost rewritten the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ! So how can we continue to repeat God's Written Word when you reject it as it is written? You follow your own doctrine...you follow your own god, and your doctrine and your god is not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
2. Eternal torturers fail to show that God is unable to save all people.
See the answer above for number 1...still applies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
3. Eternal torturers fail to show evidences that Gods love and mercy ends at death, or that the gospel message is not able to be received after death.
See the answer above for number 1...still applies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmaw
4. Eternal Torturers fail to show that not all creation will bow and swear allegiance to God.
See *** above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
5. Eternal torturers fail to show that God respects mans mortal will over his own immortal will.
You have got to be kidding me...are you serious? You are so lost. You need to read the Bible with your eyes wide open Ironmaw...you have been blinded. I'm not going to even bother looking up the 100's of verses concerning us having a CHOICE..this is so elementary! I would laugh if it weren't so serious!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
6. Eternal torturers fail to show that the unbelievers and wicked who are deceived, will not turn to God when the truth is finally fully revealed to them.
If anyone rejects God's Truth upon hearing it, and they die before recieving Him, TOO LATE!! NOW YOU PROOVE THAT THEY HAVE A SECOND CHANCE AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN LAID SIX FEET UNDER!! YOU HAVE FAILED MISERABLY IN SHOWING ME WHERE IN THE BIBLE IT STATES THIS!!!
....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
Lets just start with these 6 and then we will move on.
Do me a favor, don't waste my time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
Verna this one is for you, and any others who think they can show evidences of any of these things.
The ball is now in your court...I'm going to get a drink of water.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 09-25-2009 at 04:41 PM..
I do not worship hell, I worship God my Father, His Son, my Savior, Jesus Christ, and His Precious Holy Spirit.
I have stated many, many times that I do not necessarily belive in eternal torment...I lean toward eternal separation...death, meaning dead, forever separated from God.
I have never shied away from, or failed to,(in any way) explain myself.
HI Verna, you may need an aspirin too while your at it ...
This whole post is a "shy away" from it silly ... And ill prove it.
Quote:
The doctrine I am committed to with every breath in me is the Pure Holy Word of our Living God both Living and Written.
The doctrine you teach is a doctrine of devils which teaches eternal evil and everlasting sin and death. It not the word of God, nor is it your interpretation of the word of God, it is your fallacious indoctrinated programming concerning the word of God. ***
Quote:
This is a lie, plain and simple. I and others have repeatedly...endlessly answered this with pure, untainted Scripture...nothing added and nothing taken away. When God says He will reconcile all things to Himself, of course he will reconcile all things to Himself, because everything is His to begin with...duh! You can bet your sweet butt He will have EVERYTHING that has knees down on them...the very trunks of trees will bend forth to honor Him...even those who never before even gave God so much as a "belch" will be on their collective knees in respect to Him! This is what He means when he says that He will reconcile all to him...even as they sit forever in the pit of hell itself, if there is a pit in hell...even if they forever burn in a fiery lake, if there is a fiery lake...even if they cursed the name of God their entire life...THEY WILL SIT THERE...OR THEY WILL BURN THERE, KNOWING THERE IS A >>>GREAT<<< <<<BIG >>>POWERFUL<<< >>>AWESOME<<< >>>ALMIGHTY<<< >>>GOD<<< BEFORE THEM...ONLY THEY WILL FOREVER BE SEPARATED FROM HIM>>>FOREVER!<<< EVERYONE WILL BOW BEFORE GOD ALMIGHTY!!! THIS is what these verses mean that you continually use to misguide the unfortunate ones who do not know any better.
Well if bring back into a former stat of harmony means all this? Then i dont ever want to be reconciled to anyone.
The word reconcile is apokatallassō ...
ἀποκαταλλάσσω - apokatallassō - reconcile
1) to reconcile completely 2) to reconcile back again 3) bring back a former state of harmony
Yeah something tells me you are not understanding these passage or most of the bible for that matter. Keep studying ...
Quote:
Your false doctrine, and any other doctrine that is taught, other than the pure Word of God, is the only...I repeat, ONLY deceptive doctrine being taught...what you teach is not Biblical Truth, Period.
I am teaching the original gospel, the word of reconciliation which was the prevailing belief in the early church during the first six centuries ad. You are teaching the false doctrine of eternal evil that was invented in Rome and made the orthodox doctrine of the church in the sixth century by ROMAN catholic church. You subscribe to a false doctrine of Roman catholicism. You might as well be worshiping Mary ...
Quote:
I am not necessarily a ET'er, as I've repeatedly stated, over and over again. The Scriptures that are given time and time again, you chop away at, saying that eternity doesn't mean eternity, death doesn't mean death, forever doesn't mean forever, always doesn't mean always, destruction doesn't men destruction, eternal doesn't mean eternal, perish doesn't mean perish, destroy doesn't mean destroy, "...will not enter..." does not mean "...will not enter...", "...keep My commandments if you love Me..." doesn't mean "...keep My commandments if you love Me...", "...repent and sin not doesn't mean "...repent and sin not...", "choose life or death..." doesn't mean "choose life or death..", "That no flesh shall glory in His presence..." does not mean "That no flesh shall glory in His presence...", "Be ye holy and without spot as I am holy..." does not mean "Be ye holy and without spot as I am holy...", on and on and on and on and on.....it doesn't end...you all have almost rewritten the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ! So how can we continue to repeat God's Written Word when you reject it as it is written? You follow your own doctrine...you follow your own god, and your doctrine and your god is not mine.
I don't know what you are but i know you are not teaching the true gospel which is the eventual reconciliation of all things in the fullness of times as was taught by the first Christians before the pagans took over the church and began changing everything in order to control the masses through false religion.
This is supposed to be proof that God is not willing to save all people? See you are shying away from explaining these things.
Quote:
See the answer above for number 1...still applies.
See the answer above for number 1...still applies.
See *** above.
"The answer above" is your way of shying away from explaining the very things i said you guys cant explain. Do you think your are fooling anyone? You would do better just to leave it alone instead of making yourself look like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.
Quote:
You have got to be kidding me...are you serious? You are so lost. You need to read the Bible with your eyes wide open Ironmaw...you have been blinded. I'm not going to even bother looking up the 100's of verses concerning us having a CHOICE..this is so elementary! I would laugh if it weren't so serious!!!!!!
I didn't say anything about choice? Why are you changing the topic? I said proof the God respects mans mortal will over his own immortal will ... In other words show me scripture that says god will defer to mankind and their will instead of doing his own will ... You haven't and you never will be able to.
Again you shy away from answering ...
Quote:
If anyone rejects God's Truth upon hearing it, and they die before recieving Him, TOO LATE!! NOW YOU PROOVE THAT THEY HAVE A SECOND CHANCE AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN LAID SIX FEET UNDER!! YOU HAVE FAILED MISERABLY IN SHOWING ME WHERE IN THE BIBLE IT STATES THIS!!!
1Pe 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel is preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
There ya go, i don't know how you missed it but i have quoted it many of times as have many others. Your wrong again ...
....
Quote:
Do me a favor, don't waste my time.
The ball is now in your court...I'm going to get a drink of water.
Learning the truth is never a waste of time. Humble yourself and let the spirit into your heart and fill you with the love of God for all things. Then you will understand why your false doctrine is not the true Gospel of Christ.
What the heck does this mean? How does this explain the passage?
"created all things" = Jesus is God
God created all things........ Ephesians 3:9 ......which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Both Paul and John call Jesus God Colossians 1:16 For by him [Jesus] all things were created.......all things werecreatedby him and for him.
John 1:1-3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......Through him [Jesus]all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
That is what the heck that means.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" John 3:36
a mistranslation? lets see, who's word is truth......"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
How can someone deny that?
But let me ask you - is this some or all:
