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Are you saying that the blood of christ only works to cleanse sinners when the sinners have faith? Like in chemistry when you have to have two components to get another more useful chemical? Why isn't the blood of christ (in your mind) sufficient to wipe away all sin?
All sin has been payed for. There is no debt for anyone.
However, each individual is cursed from Adam and needs to be made new. Each man has a sin nature. It is the reason Adam and Eve were removed from the garden - so they would not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever with a sin nature.
We receive Christ's sinless nature when we believe the gospel. It is the presence of Him in us that allows us back into His presence to eat from the Tree of Life at the proper time.
The Holy Spirit is the seal for redemption.
People the other side don't even listen. It's frustrating that you continue to focus on horizontal means to remain saved. I don't even understand how you can use the term "saved" when it can be lost. You are not saved from anything. If you sin on the wrong day and get hit by a car - you're lost according to your theology. The power of God means nothing to you.
Verna this scripture that you are alluding to is about non-believers who are aimlessly wandering out in the desert,they are turning a deaf ear on the God of Israel and turning to their own beliefs and desires. When one stays away from the Lord their hearts begin to harden,they are steadfast in their own ways and desires and eventually they turn completely away from the Lord because they want to live in their own sin and this is dangerous because one will and I will use point of no return because they will have gone too far in their sin or belief to ever want to turn back to God.
When one accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour a true repentance whereby we have a change of mind and heart,we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and are wanting to be like Christ. They are saved through the blood of Christ for those who believe shall not perish but have everlasting life .
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham
Well said noland123. People can drift too far from God, including backsliders, so that they may never get back to shore. It's extremely dangerous.
Amen! It's faith in the the blood of Jesus that cleanses the sinner of all sin.
Regarding losing one's salvation, the prophet Ezekiel gives the answer.
Ezekiel 18
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Just a quick question. What is the difference between rejection of salvation and losing your faith to you?
To me, if I would reject Jesus, that would the same as losing my faith or as Peter wrote 2 Peter 3:17 falling from your secure position.
Twin
Hey twin, I had a very blessed Thanksgiving, I am so thankful my husband is healthy! I hope yours was blessed too.
The difference is rejection is when someone hears the truth about salvation refuses to accept and believe it. Our salvation is secure and forever. However,we can lose the joy of our salvation.
*
It is utter tripe, show me one word in the gospels about anybody jumping out of God's hand. Honestly every time there is a new translation of the bible, everybody is out with their spy glass looking to see if one jot or one tittle has been added to the sacred record, but YOU add utter nonsense about jumping out of God's hand.
I made it perfectly plain to a blind man that sin has consequences.
You do understand that "being in the Father's hand" is allegory, don't you? So if I say I believe one can (willfully) "jump out of the Father's hand", that is also allegory...I'm not "adding to the Word", as you alluded, but rather summarizing what some of the Bible already says. Exactly how they "leave the Father's hand" is irrelevant: it doesn't matter if they walk, jump, run, swim, crawl, or fly...it's all immaterial. That scripture just means no outside force, person, or even Satan himself can take away one's salvation out of the Father's hand.
However...other Bible scripture makes it clear that one's salvation is secure only so long as we individually, personally, do not turn against God. While the "once-saved-always-saved regardless of whatever you do" doctrine may be very comforting, I don't believe the Bible supports that...UNLESS the believer abides in Him to the very end. IE: does not fall away from the faith. He who endures to the end shall be saved. If you stay serving God, then yes, you are secure. If you are out doing your own thing, rebelling, have unrepented/unconfessed sin, not serving God, have turned away...then you are in danger of forfeiting your salvation, unless you repent and come back to the Lord.
If you study the whole context of this subject in the Bible, it makes it clear that we can walk away from, rebel, depart from, fall from, reject, and turn away from, the faith. There is a point where a believer can fall away to the extent that they cannot be renewed again to repentance, because they crucify Christ over again. (If that isn't "jumping out of His hand", then you have my permission to change my wording to "turn away from", or "fall from"...whichever makes you happy). It all means the same: the person left the Lord willingly...nobody grabbed him out of the hand of the Father. They willingly decided they didn't want Jesus to be their Lord, and they willingly left.
You wanted to be shown from the Word? Ok. READ these:
Hebrews 3:12-14
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 2:1
1 Tim 4:1
John 6:66-68
2 Tim 2:12
2 Peter 2:20-21
John 15:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Chronicles 28:9
1 Cor 9:27
Hebrews 6:4-6
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 10:22
Luke 12:45-46
Rev 3:5
And...lastly...this one:
Romans 11:18-22
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
You do understand that "being in the Father's hand" is allegory, don't you? So if I say I believe one can (willfully) "jump out of the Father's hand", that is also allegory...I'm not "adding to the Word", as you alluded, but rather summarizing what some of the Bible already says. Exactly how they "leave the Father's hand" is irrelevant: it doesn't matter if they walk, jump, run, swim, crawl, or fly...it's all immaterial. That scripture just means no outside force, person, or even Satan himself can take away one's salvation out of the Father's hand.
However...other Bible scripture makes it clear that one's salvation is secure only so long as we individually, personally, do not turn against God. While the "once-saved-always-saved regardless of whatever you do" doctrine may be very comforting, I don't believe the Bible supports that...UNLESS the believer abides in Him to the very end. IE: does not fall away from the faith. He who endures to the end shall be saved. If you stay serving God, then yes, you are secure. If you are out doing your own thing, rebelling, have unrepented/unconfessed sin, not serving God, have turned away...then you are in danger of forfeiting your salvation, unless you repent and come back to the Lord.
If you study the whole context of this subject in the Bible, it makes it clear that we can walk away from, rebel, depart from, fall from, reject, and turn away from, the faith. There is a point where a believer can fall away to the extent that they cannot be renewed again to repentance, because they crucify Christ over again. (If that isn't "jumping out of His hand", then you have my permission to change my wording to "turn away from", or "fall from"...whichever makes you happy). It all means the same: the person left the Lord willingly...nobody grabbed him out of the hand of the Father. They willingly decided they didn't want Jesus to be their Lord, and they willingly left.
You wanted to be shown from the Word? Ok. READ these:
Hebrews 3:12-14
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 2:1
1 Tim 4:1
John 6:66-68
2 Tim 2:12
2 Peter 2:20-21
John 15:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Chronicles 28:9
1 Cor 9:27
Hebrews 6:4-6
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 10:22
Luke 12:45-46
Rev 3:5
And...lastly...this one:
Romans 11:18-22
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Bud
Now i know what you've been up to today...or all night?
It's dark up there for 22 hrs a day right now isn't it?
All sin has been payed for. There is no debt for anyone.
However, each individual is cursed from Adam and needs to be made new. Each man has a sin nature. It is the reason Adam and Eve were removed from the garden - so they would not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever with a sin nature.
We receive Christ's sinless nature when we believe the gospel. It is the presence of Him in us that allows us back into His presence to eat from the Tree of Life at the proper time.
The Holy Spirit is the seal for redemption.
People the other side don't even listen. It's frustrating that you continue to focus on horizontal means to remain saved. I don't even understand how you can use the term "saved" when it can be lost. You are not saved from anything. If you sin on the wrong day and get hit by a car - you're lost according to your theology. The power of God means nothing to you.
The purpose of Christ dying on the cross and coming back was to provide salvation to all by abolishing sin...
That was done.
Now why do you say that someone has to do anything for that to be done...it is done. That is powerful. Now if all people believed that would be great but that has never happened. Not in the OT nor the NT nor now as we know... So when Jesus died he died for all. not just those who would believe but ALL...
If you or an "unsaved" person (by your theology) are hit by a car the same thing happens. The person is washed by the blood in the second death.. then brought into the presence of God. That was the power of the blood alone. The power of the grace of God.. not man's belief, or faith that man can boast of...
You say that everyone's debt is paid but then you say they must pay for their debt.
If their debt is paid there is nothing more to be done.
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