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Calm down guy. I wasn't attacking your precious Atlanta. Do you prefer hanging out at your local strip mall over enjoying a pint in historic rehab oozing with character on vibrant walkable street?
So what is the 2010 definition of urban? Vinyl clad boxes on a cul-de-sac?
First of all, when you say city, aren't you really incorporating the entire metro area into the discussion, for that is what everyone does with Atlanta. St. Louis' suburbs are every bit as auto-centric as any other place. The same goes for Baltimore. Don't fool yourself.
If you take the center city, some places are on grids, others are not. Atlanta has some areas that are on grid, whereas others are not. Boston isn't on a grid, but no one claims that it isn't urban. Urban has to do with built environment and population. Atlanta is every bit as urban and more than a place like Baltimore. Seriously, Baltimore feels like a mid-sized city when I'm traveling through. It's closer to Jacksonville or Birmingham in developed-land size than Atlanta. It's skyline is also closer to those cities than Atlanta.
While the Atlanta metro is larger, Baltimore to me as a city feels larger
It is 637K over 81 sq miles; Atlanta is 541K over 132 sq miles
Also while the Atlanta metro is larger the combined Urbanized Area of Baltimore/DC is larger and continuous - To me the area around Baltimore feels larger and based on developed area actually is
Baltimore/DC developed/urbanized area 6.3 million
Atlanta Developed/Urbanized Area 4.2 million
Now this is not to say Atlanta does not have urban areas or is not large, but mutliple skylines do not make a place feel more urban, the street level does, of which both have a fair amount of with Baltimore having more and a little more cohesive, does this make one better, no, to some, yes, to others, no but it is what it is and to claim Atlanta more urban or more developed to me is not accurate. If the question is more tall buildings than Yes Atlanta does have significantly more, if that makes it more urban than just every city in America is more urban than DC...
While the Atlanta metro is larger, Baltimore to me as a city feels larger
It is 637K over 81 sq miles; Atlanta is 541K over 132 sq miles
Also while the Atlanta metro is larger the combined Urbanized Area of Baltimore/DC is larger and continuous - To me the area around Baltimore feels larger and based on developed area actually is
Baltimore/DC developed/urbanized area 6.3 million
Atlanta Developed/Urbanized Area 4.2 million
Now this is not to say Atlanta does not have urban areas or is not large, but mutliple skylines do not make a place feel more urban, the street level does, of which both have a fair amount of with Baltimore having more and a little more cohesive, does this make one better, no, to some, yes, to others, no but it is what it is and to claim Atlanta more urban or more developed to me is not accurate. If the question is more tall buildings than Yes Atlanta does have significantly more, if that makes it more urban than just every city in America is more urban than DC...
Of course, when you combine two metro areas the size of DC and Baltimore together, it's going to be slightly larger than Atlanta in developed land area. Taken by themselves, they can't compare, especially Baltimore. In terms of population, metro DC is fairly similar to Atlanta.
By the way, what is your definition of urban? Why is the definition of many people, such as yourself, placated in a 1920s terminology? Urban simply relates to population and built-up areas, that lacking rural characteristics. Atlanta is a far more dynamic region, in both of these areas, than Baltimore. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. Baltimore reminds me of a Jacksonville, maybe Orlando, when I've traveled through it. It's much smaller, and looks every bit the part.
Of course, when you combine two metro areas the size of DC and Baltimore together, it's going to be slightly larger than Atlanta in developed land area. Taken by themselves, they can't compare, especially Baltimore. In terms of population, metro DC is fairly similar to Atlanta.
By the way, what is your definition of urban? Why is the definition of many people, such as yourself, placated in a 1920s terminology? Urban simply relates to population and built-up areas, that lacking rural characteristics. Atlanta is a far more dynamic region, in both of these areas, than Baltimore. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. Baltimore reminds me of a Jacksonville, maybe Orlando, when I've traveled through it. It's much smaller, and looks every bit the part.
Why does skyline equal urbanity - to that end DC is less urban than everywhere, and the area developed that balt and DC take up is roughly similar to Atlanta.
And you are saying Atlanta is more dynamic than the baltimore/DC area? really?
Downtown Balimore looks like Jacksonville, from where, the highway?
Are you kidding me?
I like Atlanta, truly, but an urban enclave in the way Baltimore is, it is not, why does eveyone want to make these place into everything, and the best at it. Urban doesnt make it better or worse but on this criteria I never understood, Atlanta has pockets of urbanity, and good ones but they are spread not as cohesive, is it better or worse, no, that really matters to the individual but to say it is more more urban, huh, or to say Baltimore is more like jacksonville, seriously are you kidding me? The only perspective that could even remotely make sense is from a highway, yes i understand that is the sunbelt perspective, from the highway, but how in the world does anything but skyline even remotely have similarities between baltimore and Jacksonville?
Why does skyline equal urbanity - to that end DC is less urban than everywhere, and the area developed that balt and DC take up is roughly similar to Atlanta.
Atlanta extends for miles and miles, far beyond what Baltimore does. It has a larger built-up inprint onto the landscape, far and beyond anything that Baltimore has. That's a fact. That's why it's more urban, as urban is the opposite of rural, and even "suburban" areas are considered "urban", only less dense.
Atlanta's skyline also notes a dynamic built environment, as well as a product of its growth, as well as population. Skyline is a built environment, like any other, so I only place so much emphasis on the built environment in terms of the overall built up area, in terms of square miles. I only mention the skyline, because some people, you apparently, still think that urban equates to turn-of-the-century row houses, as though skyscrapers and other forms of development do not count. Nonsense. Your terminology of what is urban isn't accurate, for it's relational to the type of development, as opposed to the true context of the word, which is a developed environment, consisting of more people than the surrounding countryside. Since Atlanta has a much larger developed area than Baltimore, then it stands to reason that it is more urban, density of certain districts withheld (which play no bearing on anything).
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And you are saying Atlanta is more dynamic than the baltimore/DC area? really?
I didn't say anything of DC, and certainly DC is dynamic, given that it is the nation's capital. In this regard, DC is more dynamic than Los Angeles, a metro region nearly three times its size.
I'm speaking of Baltimore. Stop connecting Baltimore with DC, as though it can't stand on its own, which it can't, in comparison to Atlanta. Simply because development between the suburbs of DC and Baltimore connected sometime in the mid to late 90s doesn't mean that they grew as one region throughout most of their history. Furthermore, the connection is a narrow link of development from the masses of the two metro areas. If Columbia, Maryland had never been built as a master-planned town, it's likely that they'd still remain unconnected today, as that city spurred further growth to and from, which enabled the cities to merge. Either that, or they'd have merged much later.
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Downtown Balimore looks like Jacksonville, from where, the highway?
Are you kidding me?
No, I'm not kidding you. Physically, it's about as spread out as Jacksonville, maybe Orlando. Its developed imprint is fairly similar to Orlando, and is a far cry from Atlanta. It's skyline looks about like Jacksonville in size, maybe smaller.
Sure, Baltimore is more dense, of that I don't deny, but you act as though your precious density is the end-all, be-all for characterizing cities.
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I like Atlanta, truly, but an urban enclave in the way Baltimore is, it is not, why does eveyone want to make these place into everything, and the best at it.
As I've said, your definition of urban is flawed. If you mean tightly packed, row-houses, etc., then Baltimore, within its center city, is more spread-out than Atlanta's tightly-packed district. However, it's not like Atlanta is lacking dense development, and it's not like metro Atlanta's development is sparse. It's not. As long as it's physically developed, above what you'd classify as rural, then it's urban.
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Urban doesnt make it better or worse but on this criteria I never understood, Atlanta has pockets of urbanity, and good ones but they are spread not as cohesive, is it better or worse, no, that really matters to the individual but to say it is more more urban, huh, or to say Baltimore is more like jacksonville, seriously are you kidding me? The only perspective that could even remotely make sense is from a highway, yes i understand that is the sunbelt perspective, from the highway, but how in the world does anything but skyline even remotely have similarities between baltimore and Jacksonville?
As I've stated, physical-expanse of developed area is one of the components for comparing how urban a region is. The built-up area, in square miles, is a defining characteristic for how large and dynamic a city is. You can argue that such is not the case, but it doesn't make what I'm saying not a fact. While Baltimore is clearly larger than Jacksonville, in a population-sense, it has a physical imprint on the land, outside of density, much closer to a Jacksonville than an Atlanta.
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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While I don't agree with Stars&Stripes that Baltimore is the same as a Jacksonville, I get where he is coming from in terms of "feel". Atlanta is at the center of a 6 million person metro and you'll never have the feeling that you are not in one. Baltimore is a smaller metro and plays the part. That's just reality.
When it comes to which is more "urban"....
Baltimore is old school urban like Philly or Boston.
Atlanta is new school urban like Seattle or Vancouver.
No one-to-one comparison can be made nor would even be fruitful to do so as it is two different types of city building. What it took to make Baltimore the way it is will never be repeated in modern times. Likewise, what made Atlanta the city it is could never be replicated in Baltimore. Neither one is better than the other.
wow, we will agree to disagree- there is no way that Baltimore and Jacksonville have anything in common and if you consider the sprwled areas of Atlanta as one place why cut off at DC - they are continuous, and developed more densly even in the burbs than Atlanta. Baltimore as a city is bigger and MORE developed than Atlanta, hence the higher population a smaller area. I agree as a stand alone METRO Atlanta is larger and I never said it is not developed, as more Urban no, And Jacksonville as more urban? absolutely not, not even close...
By this notion, you could also argue Atlanta is more urban than Philly, to this I would also disagree, because the census cuts a line in the middle of an area that is a few miles from the core yet maintains over a 7K density all the way through the burbs. Yes density matters on urbanity, moreso than do skyscrapers
on a dveloped metro with suburbs, that is not urban, that is some hybrid that is mostly not urban
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
wow, we will agree to disagree- there is no way that Baltimore and Jacksonville have anything in common and if you consider the sprwled areas of Atlanta as one place why cut off at DC - they are continuous, and developed more densly even in the burbs than Atlanta. Baltimore as a city is bigger and MORE developed than Atlanta, hence the higher population a smaller area. I agree as a stand alone METRO Atlanta is larger and I never said it is not developed, as more Urban no, And Jacksonville as more urban? absolutely not, not even close...
By this notion, you could also argue Atlanta is more urban than Philly, to this I would also disagree, because the census cuts a line in the middle of an area that is a few miles from the core yet maintains over a 7K density all the way through the burbs. Yes density matters on urbanity, moreso than do skyscrapers
on a dveloped metro with suburbs, that is not urban, that is some hybrid that is mostly not urban
In response to what I said? Cause I don't believe any of that.
Basically what I'm saying is that it's two different type of cites. It's like comparing a freight train car to a subway train. Yeah, they're both trains, but they operate in entirely different ways.
Yes you are confused. That picture has nothing to do with my question. I guess you either get it or you don't. I never said there was anything wrong with Atlanta, it's a fine city. You Atl residents sure are defensive.
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