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It would still be about three to four thousand highrises off, but I see your point. Still wouldn't be near Manhattans level. But it would be larger than Chicago and a nice second. Unfortunately that will never happen. Philly only has about 300 highrises give or take a few. NYC has over six thousand I believe. So two thousand more would still not come close. But it would be enough to overtake Chicago by double.
I've been to Philly numberous times. I dated a girl from Pottstown, which is twenty minutes away. Philly still has too many vacant parking lots surrounding their downtown. They still have room for alot of new buildings; however, let's not forget we are in a building recession still.
We seem to have quite a few surface parking lots in the CBD, which I can't remember ever seeing many of those in downtown Boston. I've also noticed that Philly almost never puts condo/apt garages underground, and always the first 5 or 6 floors above ground. My bldg in DC had all the parking underground. I assume that is because Philly property values are still much lower than the other major cities such that the extra cost of excavation is not gotten back in higher selling prices. It's a shame as those first few floors are just unappealing conc parking decks.
Not really a high density project, but I plan on visiting Philadelphia when the Mormon Temple opens there---I think apart from Manhattan its the only temple in a downtown-like environment, which is cool.
We seem to have quite a few surface parking lots in the CBD, which I can't remember ever seeing many of those in downtown Boston. I've also noticed that Philly almost never puts condo/apt garages underground, and always the first 5 or 6 floors above ground. My bldg in DC had all the parking underground. I assume that is because Philly property values are still much lower than the other major cities such that the extra cost of excavation is not gotten back in higher selling prices. It's a shame as those first few floors are just unappealing conc parking decks.
I think you're right in regards to Philly property values not justifying the extra cost of underground parking in the past, but I think that is become less and less the case as property values in prime areas are catching some top-dollar investing.
Most new, large-scale projects that I have read about have an underground parking component (i.e., new Family Court, new apartment building on Chestnut, new 1900 Arch Street apartment complex, etc.) -- and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Not to mention, it is now a zoning stipulation for any new parking garages to incorporate wrap-around ground retail as to not discourage street vibrancy; this is the model that will be used for the new parking garage adjacent to the Convention Center. It's the next best thing to no parking garages at all.
Not really a high density project, but I plan on visiting Philadelphia when the Mormon Temple opens there---I think apart from Manhattan its the only temple in a downtown-like environment, which is cool.
The site is 1739 Vine Street:
A rendering:
That actually broke ground, also two blocks from the new Barnes Foundation Museum which opens this spring and that lot and area is maybe the deadest zone in the whole DT. In your first image the area just to left of th image is where Blatstein (Developed much of No Libs) is about to redo/develop 4 sq blocks and over 1,000 housing units and a host of retail/restaurants/bars.
Also in front of temple (Logan Circle is being redeveloped as more pedestrian friendly park and they are decking over 676 which basically cut through this nabe (below grade) with many old structures destroyed that are now just getting redeveloped.
This is what exists where the Temple interacts with the Parkway today, looking back, the building on the left is the Library and the new Temple will sit in front of the taller building on the angle directly on the square with additional park improvements.
I think you're right in regards to Philly property values not justifying the extra cost of underground parking in the past, but I think that is become less and less the case as property values in prime areas are catching some top-dollar investing.
Most new, large-scale projects that I have read about have an underground parking component (i.e., new Family Court, new apartment building on Chestnut, new 1900 Arch Street apartment complex, etc.) -- and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Not to mention, it is now a zoning stipulation for any new parking garages to incorporate wrap-around ground retail as to not discourage street vibrancy; this is the model that will be used for the new parking garage adjacent to the Convention Center. It's the next best thing to no parking garages at all.
Agreed, also some other new buildings, like the Fergies tower is trying to get a waiver (actually some are fighting to remove the parking requirement in total) to reduce the number of spaces and put them all underground. Also with DC the MAIN reason for underground is the height limitation more than anything, there is only so far they go up in DC.
But for as vibrant (and actually dense) as Philly is there are far too many lots, good news is they are finally being redeveloped, even if the pace could be better.
Here is one lot that with no major issues will have construction of a nearly 500 ft mixed use mostly residential tower built on the lot and around Fergies bar.
Below is recent addition with above ground parking
The St. James | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kukulu21/2519584813/ - broken link)
but at least the street level interaction isnt so bad.
That actually broke ground, also two blocks from the new Barnes Foundation Museum which opens this spring and that lot and area is maybe the deadest zone in the whole DT. In your first image the area just to left of th image is where Blatstein (Developed much of No Libs) is about to redo/develop 4 sq blocks and over 1,000 housing units and a host of retail/restaurants/bars.
Also in front of temple (Logan Circle is being redeveloped as more pedestrian friendly park and they are decking over 676 which basically cut through this nabe (below grade) with many old structures destroyed that are now just getting redeveloped.
This is what exists where the Temple interacts with the Parkway today, looking back, the building on the left is the Library and the new Temple will sit in front of the taller building on the angle directly on the square with additional park improvements.
As an SF native who has been to Philadelphia several times, I give the edge to downtown SF over center city philly. SF's downtown has more highrises, more office space, an equal or larger population compared to Center City (depends on how you define Center City), and feels bigger and denser (which it is, though not by a large amount), and is a bit more busy overall. Philly is impressive, but SF has a size advantage combined with an advantage in vibrancy that Philly can't quite match. It makes sense: SF is the 2nd densest big city, and its three densest hoods are in downtown (the Tenderloin) or partially in it (chinatown, nob hill). Philly has no hoods as dense as those, downtown or elsewhere. In addition to that, SF has a larger main shopping district (union square) which attracts not only shoppers from around SF and the Bay Area, but throngs of tourists as well...thats another thing; there are more tourists in dt SF. Downtown SF is also more diverse than center city, both ethnically/racially, and economically, which means it has more diverse amenities too.
It really annoys me when people try to compare cities that really came to prominence in the 20th Century with ones that declined in the 20th Century. It doesn't have a larger population though, that much is a fact.
As for this density thing.. Philadelphia is filled with rowhouses, even in Center City. The city also gets filled in with each passing year, and rowhouse lined neighborhoods see big apartment/condo construction happening. Our density has been there for centuries.
Philly is more diverse than SF though so who cares? Your diversity is in your downtown, whereas ours is all over the metro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
I think this is mostly fair.
Two points; there are two census tracts in center city over 100K now (based on the latest census data (one in rittenhouse and one in old city). In terms of diversity, this is rapidly changing and Philly on population both in absolute and on growth is infilling faster than SF (because there was more room). Philly is expected to add another 20K (2,000 highrise units under contruction today alone) to the DT population taking over 100K (with a density of over 60K ppsm in the DT) in the Center City area in the next ten years.
The biggest difference is on shopping where Philly could be better and is not at the level of SF and to me this coupled with slightly higher density in SF makes for a slightly more active DT. Both really excel on cultural offerings and restaurants and bars. And both also have great connectivity (walkability) directly into the next nabes.
If Philly gets any traction on the redevelopment to the north of chinatown and along North Broad (both prime for development) and Market East gets better they could very well be even in the future (though shopping will likely be better in SF). From 1990 to today there was no comparison, today Philly is continuing to close th gap
Someone mentioned no tall DT Hotels in Philly earlier
This to me would actually qualify, and a great old building in re-use as the Loews (Also am gald to see the Monaco from Kimpton under construction in Philly (Believe Kimpton is a SF or CA chain) along with their other offering the Palomar and much prefer these to the W's and the like.
The Old PFSS Building and Loews Hotal (Oldest Air Conditioned Skyscraper in the Wolrd and considered in aechitecture to be the first International style skyscraper in teh world built in 1939)
I was the one who mentioned needing a tall hotel in the dowtown.
What I meant was more along the lines of the Waldorf-Astoria project that never happened. It's understandable though, given that at the time the demand was not there for one of those hotels.
About all of the building in Center City, there's a lot I could say about what Temple and Penn and even Drexel (did you see that plan in the 2035 thread? Dear Lord) are doing throughout the city to name a few, or about the construction that is going on throughout the entire metro, but this is the Downtown thread.
I agree with kidphilly that Market East is definitely the key. If Market East ever fulfills its potential, Philadelphia will leapfrog more than a few cities.
About all of the building in Center City, there's a lot I could say about what Temple and Penn and even Drexel (did you see that plan in the 2035 thread? Dear Lord) are doing throughout the city to name a few, or about the construction that is going on throughout the entire metro, but this is the Downtown thread.
I agree with kidphilly that Market East is definitely the key. If Market East ever fulfills its potential, Philadelphia will leapfrog more than a few cities.
What a terrible piece of downtown Philly. It really is dreadful to walk there on a Sat afternoon with all the trashy elements hanging around. You just would never see that in other downtowns. I'm perplexed why that area is just so underveloped. The retail in that area is comprised of cheap crap stores. Philly has too many poor neighborhoods very close to the downtown, a major hindrance to fulfilling potential. Those people flood the downtown every weekend, much more so than other major cities.
What a terrible piece of downtown Philly. It really is dreadful to walk there on a Sat afternoon with all the trashy elements hanging around. You just would never see that in other downtowns. I'm perplexed why that area is just so underveloped. The retail in that area is comprised of cheap crap stores. Philly has too many poor neighborhoods very close to the downtown, a major hindrance to fulfilling potential. Those people flood the downtown every weekend, much more so than other major cities.
You have to remember, it's been only about a decade or so since the city actually started coming back to life. Before that, everything was an attempt to keep up the status quo while the city continued to decline. Give it time. Market East will get there, and not only Market East but all of Center City and then all of Philadelphia and then all of the Delaware Valley will eventually fulfill its potential.
The kids go downtown from other parts because they don't have similar things in their neighborhoods. If they would put a movie theater and good shopping and other amenities in their neighborhoods, kids wouldn't need to go to Center City.
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