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Chicago is the closest in America you'll get to another Manhattan
no city in America is close if you want to get technical about it. It was exaggeration obviously Manhattan has much more than 2,000 buildings. I was just expressing the difference between 2,000 buildings and 2,000 units. And since they were talking about downtown I would expect many of those to be high-rises maybe giving it a Manhattan look and feel not literally being just like Manhattan.
I've traveled to many cities around the world. But this is about downtowns in the U.S. And clearly you haven't been to many of them. Leave DC and your go-go music behind and go explore the USA!:-)
Go get an education in urban planning that qualifies you to have this conversation with me before you try to give your ignorant opinion. This entire thread is full of opinions from people who clearly are not working professionals in the planning arena. This is not about what you like, this is about urban form and practice. That is what the master's program in City and Regional Planning is for.
Here is my list of best U.S. downtowns (this list is purely opinion)
1. NYC
2. Chicago
3. San Francisco
4. Philadelphia
5. Boston
6. Washington D.C.
7. Miami
8. Seattle
9. Detroit
10. Milwaukee
Honorable Mentions
LA, New Orleans, Portland, Kansas City, Cincinnati, Houston, San Diego, Indianapolis, Denver, Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Sacramento, Atlanta, Cleveland, Savannah, Pittsburgh
That is why I said malls don't create an urban environment. The people aren't spread thoughout the streets in the city. If we had people crawling our streets like other countries, it wouldn't matter where our retail was because our streets would be packed no matter what. We don't have that luxury in this country.
I agree most of our cities aren't packed like what you see in places like Japan, Korea or even Europe. However, I disagree about the mall part. If done right a mall downtown beats having one in the burbs. You don't want shoppers running to a suburban mall because it's the only retail option in town. In Indy the Circle Centre Mall downtown has experienced success over the years. Why? instead of tearing down most of the historical buildings it used them to full occupancy to make up part of the mall. You have a collection of old buildings connected from within for higher occupancy during the winter when it's too cold outside but entrance access to the mall at street level from all sides (this helps promote more street traffic). Even though Circle Centre lost it's tenant Nordstrom the space will eventually be replaced. You not only have lots of foot traffic on the inside but outside as well. Like Minneapolis it is connected by a series of skywalks (pretty clever I'd say) on a smaller scale. You have a underground tunnel connecting the convention center and Lucas Oil stadium. When it's 5 degrees most people would rather go indoors if the option were available. When you offer options inside and out with more connections and convenience more people will come. It's no wonder why many cities like Pittsburgh come to look at Indy as a model and wonder how they pulled it off. Yes, it can be done big or small.
A city's vibrant core can do wonders if done right. It's what brings a city together. The example then becomes contagious and spreads through out the city. It's simple just don't force people to drive all over the city to go to a mall for retail needs or a game at a stadium in the suburbs. Have all of it in one location within walking distance. I want to be able to walk to the zoo then I can do that.
Some density helps
Monument Circle (of course, without the large video screens on the side of buildings) some of the best vibrant public gather places (Circles or Squares) I've seen anywhere.
Last edited by urbanologist; 04-01-2012 at 02:13 PM..
I agree most of our cities aren't packed like what you see in places like Japan, Korea or even Europe. However, I disagree about the mall part. If done right a mall downtown beats having one in the burbs. You don't want shoppers running to a suburban mall because it's the only retail option in town. In Indy the Circle Centre Mall downtown has experienced success over the years. Why? instead of tearing down most of the historical buildings it used them to full occupancy to make up part of the mall. You have a collection of old buildings connected from within for higher occupancy during the winter when it's too cold outside but entrance access to the mall at street level from all sides (this helps promote more street traffic). Even though Circle Centre lost it's tenant Nordstrom the space will eventually be replaced. You not only have lots of foot traffic on the inside but outside as well. Like Minneapolis it is connected by a series of skywalks (pretty clever I'd say) on a smaller scale. You have a underground tunnel connecting the convention center and Lucas Oil stadium. When it's 5 degrees most people would rather go indoors if the option were available. When you offer options inside and out with more connections and convenience more people will come. It's no wonder why many cities like Pittsburgh come to look at Indy as a model and wonder how they pulled it off. Yes, it can be done big or small.
A city's vibrant core can do wonders if done right. It's what brings a city together. The example then becomes contagious and spreads through out the city. It's simple just don't force people to drive all over the city to go to a mall for retail needs or a game at a stadium in the suburbs. Have all of it in one location within walking distance. I want to be able to walk to the zoo then I can do that.
Some density helps
Monument Circle (of course, without the large video screens on the side of buildings) some of the best vibrant public gather places (Circles or Squares) I've seen anywhere.
Well if you have horrible limitations like that, then yes, you do what you have to do. It's hard enough just to live in a place that gets down to 5 degrees much less enjoy it and shop.
For all the cities the don't have that problem like NYC, DC, San Fran, Philly, Bmore etc. etc., it's better for all stores to line the streets so people don't have the option to go inside an area separated from the street. These cities have a much more urban appeal so they are already made for walking. Chicago seems to do pretty well in first floor retail despite the temperatures.
Well if you have horrible limitations like that, then yes, you do what you have to do. It's hard enough just to live in a place that gets down to 5 degrees much less enjoy it and shop.
For all the cities the don't have that problem like NYC, DC, San Fran, Philly, Bmore etc. etc., it's better for all stores to line the streets so people don't have the option to go inside an area separated from the street. These cities have a much more urban appeal so they are already made for walking. Chicago seems to do pretty well in first floor retail despite the temperatures.
Chicago also has three indoor malls along Michigan Ave that do nothing to take away the urban feel. It isnt an either or and more on Function
The Gallery in Philly is awful and destroyed the street life (or greatly hurt the stretch) some can work and some dont
Go get an education in urban planning that qualifies you to have this conversation with me before you try to give your ignorant opinion. This entire thread is full of opinions from people who clearly are not working professionals in the planning arena. This is not about what you like, this is about urban form and practice. That is what the master's program in City and Regional Planning is for.
You're right! It's not about opinions and I'm not an urban planner. It's about what works. And clearly if you've been to Chicago, Seattle or San Francisco you would see that malls definately work in an urban downtown if they are down right. Even in areas like Georgetown does Georgetowne Park Mall work in an urban seting? I think it does.
You're right! It's not about opinions and I'm not an urban planner. It's about what works. And clearly if you've been to Chicago, Seattle or San Francisco you would see that malls definately work in an urban downtown if they are down right. Even in areas like Georgetown does Georgetowne Park Mall work in an urban seting? I think it does.
I never said enclosed malls don't work. I think you are confusing what I have been saying. I said having enclosed malls takes retail away from other area's of downtown that could use that retail which would then infuse the entire downtown with foot traffic instead of pockets of high foot traffic around retail offerings. I also said that, if the entire downtown footprint is covered from head to toe with first floor retail, then enclosed malls are fine because the entire first floor around the downtown footprint would be filled and the enclosed mall would be spillover.
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