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^^^I wouldn't bring up $$$. 280 Elizabeth in Atlanta, for instance, is a $45M for 3.4 acres of land, 201 luxury infill apartments in probably the trendiest intown neighborhood at the moment, 39,000 SF of ground floor retail, and structured parking to support it all and then some at the request of nearby residents.
$45M won't even get you an acre of land in similar areas in some cities in this country. LoL
Minneapolis has similar costs, if not a tad higher, to build than Atlanta. So if it wants to add the same thing as 280 Elizabeth to one of its trendiest neighborhoods, land will be a tad more expensive, per unit hard costs a tad more expensive, and rents will likely be 20-30% more expensive.
The Beltline is a *huge* undertaking. But to date a few hundred million has been spent and the projected buildout, just for the complete trail not including any light rail, is another ~15+ years. It is having wide sweeping effects on the city, but I do contend that Atlanta's street network, zoning, and obviously transit are not compatible with the kind of density I would like to see consistently along the Beltline.
Ponce City Market is a ~$250M undertaking. This would be a large project in most cities, but is small compared to lots of projects going up in NYC, SF, Miami, Toronto, Boston, Philly, etc etc etc. $250M will build you a medium-sized building here. The land for the Transbay (ahem Salesforce) Tower here cost almost that much.
NYC, SF, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, and Miami all have 1-2+ billion/multi-billion dollar projects underway right now, to be completed within a couple years. Atlanta, and most cities as a matter of fact, cannot make this claim. A 100,000 Sf addition to SFMOMA alone costs $360-400M, and is by no means a "major project" in the city that will have wide sweeping effects like the Beltline or Ponce City Market in Atlanta.
In Atlanta, I think a good measure for how far the city has come and development/changes there will be measured in city limits housing costs and apartment/office rents. I want to see big time growth. When rent growth occurs enough where rents come up substantially, more will be able to be done. Atlanta land is not cheap, but rents aren't really there to support that basis without flexible underwriting. Office rents are $30/sf and apartment rents are $2-2.50/sf/mo. Seattle and Miami have office rents of $45/sf and apartment rents of $3-3.50/sf. Land prices between the three cities aren't really that significantly different if you're talking multifamily-entitled sites. Rents still need to come up in Atlanta, and they'll rise with demand. If demand isn't what is being talked about so heavily, then rents won't go where they need to go to support more and better quality urban developments.
Houston office rents are ~$40/sf and apartment rents in the city are higher than they are in Atlanta. Population growth is still extreme, job growth leads the nation just about, and traffic is even worse there. All the ingredients are in place for an urban boom that is simply more prolific than Atlanta's right now. It helps that they are less concerned with preserving "historic" neighborhoods, are built on a grid, and are very active expanding their public transit.
Houston rents are higher becasue the economy is better.Of course rents are higher.Salaries are slightly higher BUT Local Purchasing Power in Houston, TX is 21.90% lower than in Atlanta, GA
I never said Atlanta led the pack of cost of construction projects.My point was that overall there is a lot of building through put the city.
As it was pointed out earlier,Atlanta was in the top 10 cities in construction projects and building.
So there is factual data to support what I was saying.
The BeltLine is not finshed.It will take several years.
As far as the the cost Atlanta is much cheaper because salaries are less and cost of living is less.Just because land cost more in Philadelphia or San Francisco does not mean there is less being built.
Houston is booming but Houston is also over 400sq mi versus Atlanta 138sq miles.(If just refering to city)More projects will of course happen in that much area.Although admittedly Houston is BOOMING.
Im not even suggesting Atlanta is anywhere close to Houston.That;s my point most cities are not.
My point about all the projecs I mentioned is what ANT mentioned earlier about projects being transformative.
The Streetcar is oneof them,along with the BelLine,Inman Park Village concept and many projects outside the metro area like Avalon in Alpharetta.the Fort Gillem project.
Houston can eventually outbuild Atlanta because of its grid but you are talking probably 30-50years from now.
All these cities will continue to grow in there core but its which one.How much is silly to try and judge.
I suppose the real question is which will have the better standard of living.
Considering things like poverty rates and educational attainment add to that quality.
Its not like Atlanta is standing still.Remember Atlanta came out of the recession last.Its housing market is only now booming again but what is proejected is a huge increase in the near future.
Atlanta does have more people moving into its core than Houston and many other cities.
Tthat was really my main emphaisis
Donald Trump will begin construction on his hotel in downtown D.C. in June. He claims it will be one of the best hotel's in the entire world. Can't wait to see what he does with the Old Post Office building. Knowing him, it will be top of the line. It will also add even more upscale shopping and restaurants to downtown D.C.
My comment has to do with street activity meaning walking or driving past etc. etc. (aesthetics). Remember, I'm always coming from an urban planning point of view. In reality, people don't care about being urban period. They would RATHER go to a mall where you can park easily and get in and back out to your car to drive home.
So then what if the Mall on the street frontage i basically changed to address the street - store fronts, restaurants/cafes with outdoor seating etc. Then is it no longer a mall? To me it i an improvement but i still a mall - that is basically what is proposed for the Gallery but will still be a mall.
BTW it is a mall that connects to three subways lines and all regional rail lines underground (basically is built on top of them) - but is still a mall
Market East Regional Rail Station under the mall (Gallery)
So then what if the Mall on the street frontage i basically changed to address the street - store fronts, restaurants/cafes with outdoor seating etc. Then is it no longer a mall? To me it i an improvement but i still a mall - that is basically what is proposed for the Gallery but will still be a mall.
BTW it is a mall that connects to three subways lines and all regional rail lines underground (basically is built on top of them) - but is still a mall
Copley is like Pentagon City. An urban shopping mall. City Center DC is nothing like either.
Copley is like Pentagon City. An urban shopping mall. City Center DC is nothing like either.
DC would be well served to have more neighborhoods like Copley actually
to be honest in construct those images look more like Liberties Walk in Northern Liberties than an organic shopping district but that is just me - could be Reston based on those images to me
That stuff looks like stuff being built in Buckhead in Atlanta (or even a slightly more upscale Atlantic Station no offense to City Center). It's my opinion that it's a little sad that City Center is stealing retail away from the Connecticut Ave corridor. I snapped some good pics there a long time ago that I can dig up, but Connecticut Ave feels more organic.
I think M Street in Georgetown will continue to be the premier shopping street in DC. City Center is wayyy too contrived and "all of a sudden".
Lots of interesting stuff going on in and around DC, including City Center as a whole, but the retail component looks bland as hell. Copley/Prudential Center (it's 2 separate malls) in Boston is actually far more interesting and established. The area, too.
MDAllStar, I would focus on highlighting other DC devs because that is just atrocious. Longchamp just redid their Union Square store here in SF and it blowwwws that POS out of the water, architecturally. And none of those stores speak "flagship" to me at all (have you been to New York, LA, SF, or even Boston???).
DC would be well served to have more neighborhoods like Copley actually
to be honest in construct those images look more like Liberties Walk in Northern Liberties than an organic shopping district but that is just me - could be Reston based on those images to me
And Copley is nothing like Pentagon City outside of being mall
Is the Mag Mile like Pentagon City - there are three enclosed malls on MI Ave
There is an enclosed mall in Georgetown too. Does it really matter if you like City Center DC? It's in D.C. so you're guaranteed to not like it anyway.
That stuff looks like stuff being built in Buckhead in Atlanta (or even a slightly more upscale Atlantic Station no offense to City Center). It's my opinion that it's a little sad that City Center is stealing retail away from the Connecticut Ave corridor. I snapped some good pics there a long time ago that I can dig up, but Connecticut Ave feels more organic.
I think M Street in Georgetown will continue to be the premier shopping street in DC. City Center is wayyy too contrived and "all of a sudden".
Lots of interesting stuff going on in and around DC, including City Center as a whole, but the retail component looks bland as hell. Copley/Prudential Center (it's 2 separate malls) in Boston is actually far more interesting and established. The area, too.
MDAllStar, I would focus on highlighting other DC devs because that is just atrocious. Longchamp just redid their Union Square store here in SF and it blowwwws that POS out of the water, architecturally. And none of those stores speak "flagship" to me at all (have you been to New York, LA, SF, or even Boston???).
^^^Yea, that mall in Georgetown is for sale. It still fits into Georgetown a little more inconspicuously, and like we all said, most big urban cities across the world have enclosed malls (Michigan Ave is filled with them, SF has a huge one, Boston has 2 adjoining, New York has Time Warner Center, I won't even get into Asia/Europe).
Our problem isn't the "mall" part. It's the overhyping (by you) of this. DC has far more interesting things going on than City Center, and you're sticking your nose into a subject (retail) that you have clearly demonstrated you don't know much about.
There is an enclosed mall in Georgetown too. Does it really matter if you like City Center DC? It's in D.C. so you're guaranteed to not like it anyway.
it just looks sterile to me - street wall and all
And that cladding - yuk
why does everything they seem to be building in these areas all look this way - DC deserves better design IMHO
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