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Having a bunch of northern transplants diversifies the local culture, but does not preclude you from your actual self. It's funny, in New York and Los Angeles, the large mixing of cultures and transplants from other American regions is called "diversity" and celebrated, but the mixing of cultures and transplants in southern areas is called "dilution" and used as a justification to disalign from its core region. One is seen as such an outlier that it absolutely cannot be ignored that the massive transplant migration means this city is no longer in this region (even though geographically the city hasn't gone anywhere and culturisms of this region are still evident), while the other, inexplicably and astoundingly so, somehow the massive transplant population doesn't seperate said city from said region...
I hate this forum and the personalities on it lol...
I do wish people would make a distinction between culture and geography, at least when it comes to Florida. It is literally the southernmost state in the continental U.S.
When it comes to Northeastern cities, NYC is probably the outlier since it received a ton of migrants almost from its inception. I mentioned the Great Migration in my previous post and it's interesting that no (border) city got reclassified as Southern due to receiving a lot of migrants during that period (I know that MO/St. Louis is sometimes thought of as Southern but that's mainly due to having been a slave state). I know a big part of it is that the South has largely been a more rural, agricultural region for most of its history and even its larger cities acted mostly as outposts of rural agriarianism than industrial centers, at least prior to the 20th century. I think the underlying narrative is that other regions have been more open to receiving transplants/immigrants than the South and that is actually a major characteristic of the cities of those other regions, although I'd argue that history says otherwise.
I don't know the answer or the reasons why... we can speculate I suppose. But I'm fully on the page that the residents of said city is what makes the city culturally this or that. If most of the migration into DC were coming from a Northward direction from all areas of the South, we wouldn't be having back and forths about DC 's "Southerness". If the current migration pattern continues where a large influx of folks from California keeps migrating into Dallas and Atlanta keeps seeing Northerners, I guarantee we will be seeing those cities drifting further away from their original "said" regional characteristics/identities. Like I noted previously, even with NYC, if we were to replace most of it's residents with folks from places like Birmingham and Mobile, NYC would definitely start to see a cultural transition.
I mean that happened with cities like Chicago and Detroit during the Great Migration, and folks have no problem pointing out the Southern cultural influences of those cities but they haven't been completely reclassified as Southern cities; that's kinda hard to do when your city is smack dab in the middle of a region. In the geographical South, the only cities that have undergone that type of reclassification are border cities.
DC actually gets migrants from all over; I don't think it's mostly from the North but I could be wrong. However, there's no doubt that its proximity to Northern cities and the growing ties to those cities due to advances in transportation and overall greater mobility has played a role in the region's cultural shift over the years. Again, that's goes with the territory being a border city. Atlanta has been seeing an influx of folks from other regions for decades, but being smack dab in the middle of South, it also gets lots of transplants from other Southern locales and has its strongest ties with other Southern cities so I don't ever see it getting reclassified IMO.
Never been to Florida but I have family from New York that live in both Orlando and Jacksonville--I can assure you they believe those cities are southern. Different? Of course, but from the hundreds of Floridians I've met in my life, all racial backgrounds, from Miami and everywhere else, from the many Florida celebrities I've watched, someone has a hard sell telling me Florida isn't southern. I'm including Miami and everywhere else in there, just like you said, if it ain't the South, where is it? Lol there are four major geographic regions in the US. The only one Florida can be in is the South, it ain't "north" of anything. Culturally, listen, it's not a northern state, I dont have to have lived there to know this. I also don't have to have lived in Libya to know it's a cultural cluster****...
You lose your credibility when you state that Florida is southern, then follow-up by saying you never been there but rather basing your opinion off hearsay and celebrities.
Florida, while has some traits of southern culture, has it's own distinct culture. It's not about wanting to "disown" southernness but rather we were never fully southern to begin with.
Northerners highly developed the east coast of Florida since the late 1800s. Miami was established by northerners. Northern transplants have been massively populating and establishing Florida for decades, greatly shaping the local culture and customs. Florida has also had a big Cuban and Caribbean influx, also shaping the local culture.
Other southern states have not experienced this, until recently, and it's only been limited to only several cities. This is why I disagree with you, the number of transplants do shape and and make up local culture. In Florida, transplants and immigrants have been populating and developing almost all regions of state as opposed to a state like Georgia where transplants and immigrants have only migrated to the Atlanta metro and settled rather than migrate and develop like the northerners in Florida.
Demographics are different in Florida and have been for decades compared to the other US southern states with containing many retirees, Cubans, Carribbeans, Puerto Ricans, South Americans, Italians, and Jewish from the north. West Palm Beach I believe has the largest Jewish population in the country. It's a very different demographic than the southern US, making the culture different.
Due to it's history, population, and geography, Florida's local cuisine is different than the south with key lime pie, and it's own Floribbean cuisine. Seafood is also very popular here which isn't really popular in the south outside New Orleans and perhaps costal areas. Cuban coffee is also popular in South Florida, which is not a component of southern culture at all.
Florida has a lot more Spanish style architecture and stucco homes. Even the old historic district of St. Augustine is a Spanish colonial style. Again, not a trait of the south.
Florida has a subtropical/tropical culture with an abundance of water, making boating and water activities ver popular. Golf is also popular among people in Florida. Another distinct trait that separates it from southern culture.
Just because Florida has some traits of southern culture doesn't make it purely southern. I don't get why people on CD insist that Florida doesn't have it's own culture and write it off as southern, even if they never been or lived here. That's like saying Phoenix is Californian culture because it has some characteristics of Southern California.
I mean that happened with cities like Chicago and Detroit during the Great Migration, and folks have no problem pointing out the Southern cultural influences of those cities but they haven't been completely reclassified as Southern cities; that's kinda hard to do when your city is smack dab in the middle of a region. In the geographical South, the only cities that have undergone that type of reclassification are border cities.
DC actually gets migrants from all over; I don't think it's mostly from the North but I could be wrong. However, there's no doubt that its proximity to Northern cities and the growing ties to those cities due to advances in transportation and overall greater mobility has played a role in the region's cultural shift over the years. Again, that's goes with the territory being a border city. Atlanta has been seeing an influx of folks from other regions for decades, but being smack dab in the middle of South, it also gets lots of transplants from other Southern locales and has its strongest ties with other Southern cities so I don't ever see it getting reclassified IMO.
You're probably correct with the border concept. That's why places like DC and Miami always get thrown into the conversation. I do agree that places that are in the center of their regions might make the change less visible as they are more or so anchors/capitals for their regions but I bet you cities like Atlanta will start to look, feel and act more and more like other cities due to the influx of transplants. Especially in today's age where the internet is already making regional identities and differences less prominent in one's personal identity just by virtue of being born in whatever region.
To add to this.... In a way, isn't this just on a macro scale of gentrification of neighborhoods? When an influx of said group comes into an area and once you hit a certain threshold/mass of enough people, you start to reshape and change the areas identity. This results in the identities and characteristics of the group that was pusheD out being marginalized and/or only existing in small pockets.
Like I noted previously, even with NYC, if we were to replace most of it's residents with folks from places like Birmingham and Mobile, NYC would definitely start to see a cultural transition.
New York "started" seeing a cultural transition centuries ago. There is absolutely no place like it in the rest of the Northeast, yet we do not say it's not a Northeastern city...
As to DC, the Washingtonian said 8% of locals were from NY and PA, while 11% were from Maryland, VA, and NC. 3% were from California. Only 16% were foreigners. The law of averages would suggest that the largest share of DC residents come from the South period. Now listen, I'm not advocating for DC as a strictly southern city, but it's hard to believe it's a strictly northern city if you've spent any measurable time anywhere up north. It's not of the historic Northeast, and it's also not of the contemporary South. It's a blend of both and anyone who doesn't feel anything southern in DC dining, traditions, dress, accents, keep going down the line, is because they don't want to. And maybe I couldn't, either, then I lived in New York, and by comparison, it's southern. Probably not very southern, but by comparison I can intelligibly feel like I'm in a different region when in DC compared to Albany or Buffalo. The weather alone is not insignificant in noting the differences...
You lose your credibility when you state that Florida is southern, then follow-up by saying you never been there but rather basing your opinion off hearsay and celebrities.
Florida, while has some traits of southern culture, has it's own distinct culture. It's not about wanting to "disown" southernness but rather we were never fully southern to begin with.
Northerners highly developed the east coast of Florida since the late 1800s. Miami was established by northerners. Northern transplants have been massively populating and establishing Florida for decades, greatly shaping the local culture and customs. Florida has also had a big Cuban and Caribbean influx, also shaping the local culture.
Other southern states have not experienced this, until recently, and it's only been limited to only several cities. This is why I disagree with you, the number of transplants do shape and and make up local culture. In Florida, transplants and immigrants have been populating and developing almost all regions of state as opposed to a state like Georgia where transplants and immigrants have only migrated to the Atlanta metro and settled rather than migrate and develop like the northerners in Florida.
Demographics are different in Florida and have been for decades compared to the other US southern states with containing many retirees, Cubans, Carribbeans, Puerto Ricans, South Americans, Italians, and Jewish from the north. West Palm Beach I believe has the largest Jewish population in the country. It's a very different demographic than the southern US, making the culture different.
Due to it's history, population, and geography, Florida's local cuisine is different than the south with key lime pie, and it's own Floribbean cuisine. Seafood is also very popular here which isn't really popular in the south outside New Orleans and perhaps costal areas. Cuban coffee is also popular in South Florida, which is not a component of southern culture at all.
Florida has a lot more Spanish style architecture and stucco homes. Even the old historic district of St. Augustine is a Spanish colonial style. Again, not a trait of the south.
Florida has a subtropical/tropical culture with an abundance of water, making boating and water activities ver popular. Golf is also popular among people in Florida. Another distinct trait that separates it from southern culture.
Just because Florida has some traits of southern culture doesn't make it purely southern. I don't get why people on CD insist that Florida doesn't have it's own culture and write it off as southern, even if they never been or lived here. That's like saying Phoenix is Californian culture because it has some characteristics of Southern California.
New York "started" seeing a cultural transition centuries ago. There is absolutely no place like it in the rest of the Northeast, yet we do not say it's not a Northeastern city...
As to DC, the Washingtonian said 8% of locals were from NY and PA, while 11% were from Maryland, VA, and NC. 3% were from California. Only 16% were foreigners. The law of averages would suggest that the largest share of DC residents come from the South period. Now listen, I'm not advocating for DC as a strictly southern city, but it's hard to believe it's a strictly northern city if you've spent any measurable time anywhere up north. It's not of the historic Northeast, and it's also not of the contemporary South. It's a blend of both and anyone who doesn't feel anything southern in DC dining, traditions, dress, accents, keep going down the line, is because they don't want to. And maybe I couldn't, either, then I lived in New York, and by comparison, it's southern. Probably not very southern, but by comparison I can intelligibly feel like I'm in a different region when in DC compared to Albany or Buffalo. The weather alone is not insignificant in noting the differences...
In a way it's of the contemporary South...the contemporary urban South specifically. I say that because downtown DC in particular feels pretty new (even the old stuff); to add fuel to the fire, in some ways downtown DC feels like a shorter, denser version of uptown Charlotte and feels less northern than Fairlie-Poplar in downtown Atlanta.
I'll sit back and wait to get pelted by tomatoes LOL.
New York "started" seeing a cultural transition centuries ago. There is absolutely no place like it in the rest of the Northeast, yet we do not say it's not a Northeastern city...
As to DC, the Washingtonian said 8% of locals were from NY and PA, while 11% were from Maryland, VA, and NC. 3% were from California. Only 16% were foreigners. The law of averages would suggest that the largest share of DC residents come from the South period. Now listen, I'm not advocating for DC as a strictly southern city, but it's hard to believe it's a strictly northern city if you've spent any measurable time anywhere up north. It's not of the historic Northeast, and it's also not of the contemporary South. It's a blend of both and anyone who doesn't feel anything southern in DC dining, traditions, dress, accents, keep going down the line, is because they don't want to. And maybe I couldn't, either, then I lived in New York, and by comparison, it's southern. Probably not very southern, but by comparison I can intelligibly feel like I'm in a different region when in DC compared to Albany or Buffalo. The weather alone is not insignificant in noting the differences...
We're on the same page. I don't think of DC being a "northern" as Philly or Boston. Also, I think NYC is seen as a separate identity most of the time and gets lumped into "NorthEast" as needed. Usually people speak of NYC in separates.
Also, most of the residents that move into DC are MD and VA but the remainder are made up mostly from Northeastern states along with CA, TX, WA and FL.
Tell me which region in the deep south you find large South American, Puerto Rican, and Jewish populations, a tropical environment offering an abundance of water activities and warm beaches, restaurants that serve Cuban coffee and key lime pie, an entire city established by northern transplants, and Spanish stucco architecture. Then I'll accept that Florida doesn't have it's own culture but rather just an extension of southern culture.
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