The next Toronto.... Seattle vs Miami?? (difference, size, airport, restaurant)

[elchevere]

Originally Posted by Guineas

Hiding it better doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Key being visible. Secondly, the homeless vagrants in Seattle aren't typically from Washington state. They are from the states that have sent them a bus ticket to Seattle.

Never said it doesn’t exist; just not anywhere as bad….having moved from another top 5-6 homeless city where it was also noticeably visible and awful, downtown San Diego, to Miami where it barely registers in my day to day encounters (unless I decide to move from Brickell to a freeway underpass) is far more preferable. I prefer living in urban environments, especially clean ones—given a choice of visible presence or not, I’ll choose not every time. Hopefully your situation improves; I believe from other posts attempts are being made.

[retslow105]

Here's some numbers from the metro areas of Miami, Seattle, Dallas, Los Angeles and New York City and Chicago.




From the 2020 Census (Before the crazy Covid wealth migration to South Florida)





-High school grad or higher

Miami metro - 85.9%
Los Angeles metro - 81.3%
NYC metro - 87%
Seattle metro - 92.9%
Chicago metro - 89.2%
Dallas metro - 86.2%




-Bachelor's degree or higher

Miami metro - 33%
Los Angeles metro - 35.4%
NYC metro - 41.4%
Seattle metro - 43.6%
Chicago metro - 39%
Dallas metro - 36%



-Persons below poverty line

Miami metro - 13.9%
Los Angeles metro - 13.2%
NYC metro - 12.4%
Seattle metro - 8.4%
Chicago metro - 11.3%
Dallas metro - 11.1%




-Foreign-born population

Miami metro - 40.9%
Los Angeles metro - 32.7%
NYC metro - 29.3%
Seattle metro - 19.2%
Chicago metro - 17.6%
Dallas metro - 18.5%







-Per Capita Personal Income - 2020 Census


"Personal income is the income received by, or on behalf of, all persons from all sources: from participation as laborers in production, from owning a home or business, from the ownership of financial assets, and from government and business in the form of transfers. It includes income from domestic sources as well as the rest of world. It does not include realized or unrealized capital gains or losses. Personal income is estimated before the deduction of personal income taxes and other personal taxes and is reported in current dollars (no adjustment is made for price changes)."


"Per Capita Personal Income (PCPI) is a more inclusive estimate of the average standard of living of residents in the U.S. than measures of per capita income. PCPI "includes wages, benefits, proprietor income, dividends, interest, rent, and transfer payments" such as Social Security, veteran's benefits, farm subsidies, welfare, and food stamps."



Before state income tax was deducted

Miami metro - $64,190
Los Angeles metro - $69,805
NYC metro - $82,322
Seattle metro - $80,420
Chicago metro - $67,671
Dallas metro - $61,554








Private schools not included (The whole Miami metro is stacked with those too)
v

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

Kudos!

Metro Areas(MSA) by % of High Schools in the Top 25% Nationally, 2022
73% San Jose
57% Miami
56% Los Angeles
54% San Francisco
54% Milwaukee
54% Bridgeport
54% Hartford
51% Boston
51% McAllen, TX
50% Washington DC
50% Madison, WI
49% Raleigh
49% Orlando
45% Austin
44% Tampa
42% Seattle
42% New York
42% Houston
42% San Diego
42% Sacramento
41% Chicago
40% Grand Rapids
40% Jacksonville
39% Dallas
39% Buffalo
38% Atlanta
38% Minneapolis
38% Rochester, NY
38% Virginia Beach
37% Denver
37% Worcester
36% Durham
36% Baltimore
36% Little Rock
35% Springfield, MA
34% Cleveland
34% El Paso
33% Albany, NY
33% Cincinnati
33% Columbus
33% Fresno

https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...hools?slide=42

[Arcenal813]

Originally Posted by elchevere

Besides South Beach, Miami is “hopping” in Brickell, Wynwood, Design District, Coconut Grove, Little Havana, etc etc—and has had pre Covid crowds for well over a year+.

What Miami lacks is connectivity between these neighborhoods. They all feel disconnected from one another, and unless you want to deal with the subpar transit system, you HAVE to drive from one location to the next, or [especially] from home to destination, which takes away from the overall feel that some other cities have. Due to this, it still feels extremely car-centric, despite some pedestrian nodes scattered around.

Once the city resolves this, I'll sing a different tune.

[elchevere]

Originally Posted by Arcenal813

What Miami lacks is connectivity between these neighborhoods. They all feel disconnected from one another, and unless you want to deal with the subpar transit system, you HAVE to drive from one location to the next, or [especially] from home to destination, which takes away from the overall feel that some other cities have. Due to this, it still feels extremely car-centric, despite some pedestrian nodes scattered around.

Agreed, but Little Havana, Wynwood, Design District, Brickell, The River District, Coconut Grove and Coral Gables are all within a short and consistent 5-18 minute drive or Uber from one another, not 30-40 minutes….one also doesn’t really need to leave Brickell or South Beach….and South Beach is only 15-20 minutes from most of the mainland with recently introduced ferry service—Poseidon—that connects downtown (from Hyatt Regency, just on the other side of the Brickell drawbridge) and SoBe with plans to expand to Coconut Grove by the end of the year. Granted, not as extensive as Toronto or Seattle’s ferry routes.

I do take the MetroMover to Heat games and the Metrorail to U of M basketball, South Miami and Dadeland Mall.

It also has new—not antiquated—Brightline higher speed rail that connects now with FtL, West Palm Beach, and shortly (next spring ?? / 80% complete) Orlando.

[retslow105]

Originally Posted by Arcenal813

What Miami lacks is connectivity between these neighborhoods. They all feel disconnected from one another, and unless you want to deal with the subpar transit system, you HAVE to drive from one location to the next, or [especially] from home to destination, which takes away from the overall feel that some other cities have. Due to this, it still feels extremely car-centric, despite some pedestrian nodes scattered around.

Once the city resolves this, I'll sing a different tune.

Many people prefer them to be disconnected. It helps give each area a different feel.

[Arcenal813]

Originally Posted by retslow105

Many people prefer them to be disconnected. It helps give each area a different feel.

I can understand that. However, "different feel" doesn't have to mean getting in a car to get from one place to another. That makes it feel car-centric. If one prefers that, fine. But that does not make it comparable to Toronto, or any other major urban city for that matter. Not even within North America.

I grew up in Montreal. Griffintown, Westmount, NDG, Shaughnessy, Gay Village, Le Plateau, Hochelaga, etc... All have VERY distinct feels. It's a mass of urban neighborhoods all interconnected, yet each feels very distinct from one another.
If Miami ever wants to feel less car-centric and truly urban, these are things that need to be achieved. Perhaps it doesn't. It's in Florida after all...

[retslow105]

Originally Posted by Arcenal813

I can understand that. However, "different feel" doesn't have to mean getting in a car to get from one place to another. That makes it feel car-centric. If one prefers that, fine. But that does not make it comparable to Toronto, or any other major urban city for that matter. Not even within North America.

I grew up in Montreal. Griffintown, Westmount, NDG, Shaughnessy, Gay Village, Le Plateau, Hochelaga, etc... All have VERY distinct feels. It's a mass of urban neighborhoods all interconnected, yet each feels very distinct from one another.
If Miami ever wants to feel less car-centric and truly urban, these are things that need to be achieved. Perhaps it doesn't. It's in Florida after all...

Those places you named are nowhere near as distinct from each other as places like Little Havana, Little Haiti, Wynwood, Coral Gables, Brickell, Design District, Miami Beach, Coconut Grove, etc etc.

This continues all throughout the metro area all the way up to less dense and totally different feel northern Palm Beach County and the less dense and totally different feel west to the Everglades areas that contrast greatly with by far the largest tropical urban beach area in the first world going east.

How distinct are Montreal's surrounding suburbs from each other? Not as distinct as the ones that are west of South Florida's densest cities I can promise you that much.

Plus those places you named are tiny compared to how large and distinct South Florida's cities are when you look at the entire urban area.

[Arcenal813]

Originally Posted by retslow105

Those places you named are nowhere near as distinct from each other as places like Little Havana, Little Haiti, Wynwood, Coral Gables, Brickell, Design District, Miami Beach, Coconut Grove, etc etc.

This continues all throughout the metro area all the way up to less dense and totally different feel northern Palm Beach County and the less dense and totally different feel west to the Everglades areas that contrast greatly with by far the largest tropical urban beach area in the first world going east.

How distinct are Montreal's surrounding suburbs from each other? Not as distinct as the ones that are west of South Florida's densest cities I can promise you that much.

Plus those places you named are tiny compared to how large and distinct South Florida's cities are when you look at the entire urban area.

Delusions of grandeur.

Please tell me you’re trolling with this post.

[Fitzrovian]

Originally Posted by Arcenal813

I can understand that. However, "different feel" doesn't have to mean getting in a car to get from one place to another. That makes it feel car-centric. If one prefers that, fine. But that does not make it comparable to Toronto, or any other major urban city for that matter. Not even within North America.

I grew up in Montreal. Griffintown, Westmount, NDG, Shaughnessy, Gay Village, Le Plateau, Hochelaga, etc... All have VERY distinct feels. It's a mass of urban neighborhoods all interconnected, yet each feels very distinct from one another.
If Miami ever wants to feel less car-centric and truly urban, these are things that need to be achieved. Perhaps it doesn't. It's in Florida after all...

First you said there is nothing noteworthy in Miami outside of downtown and Miami Beach; then, after it was pointed out that that was patently false, you went to "yeah but they are disconnected". You keep jumping from goalpost to goalpost to constantly paint Miami in a negative light and downplay the postives, but I don't think you know Miami as well as you think you do.... A lot of your opinions seem to be based on misinformation or very outdated information.

Also who is comparing Miami to Montreal? The latter had a population of over half a million in 1911 when Miami was just a baby with a population of around 5,000. It's a ridiculous comparison. Miami is an adolescent of a city and needs to be evaluated in that light. That said, for a sunbelt city that has developed in the car age I'd say it is doing better than most. And as someone who has closely followed urban developments in South Florida over the last 20+ years, I'd say it's certainly moving in the right direction and deserves a lot of credit. There are brand new quality urban neighborhoods that have arisen just in the last 10-15 years over what used to be total wasteland (Brickell City Centre, Midtown, Edgewater, Wynwood) and others that have undergone major revitalization/redevelopment (Downtown Coral Gables, Coconut Grove, Miami Design District). And in terms of connectivity, while there is still clearly a long way to go -- and South Florida will no doubt remain auto-centric for a long time to come -- there have been great initiatives as well with the extension of Metrorail to the Airport, Brightline, and Tri-Rail to Downtown.

Originally Posted by Arcenal813

Well, yeah. That's what I thought was being discussed here.

Although both really do quite poorly outside of their downtowns, barring Miami Beach. For instance, I was surprised at how much of a snoozefest Downtown Fort Lauderdale is during my last visit there. Looks great from a distance, but at street level, there didn't seem to be much of anything going on there.
This was during a weekend, and with the Thunderbirds in town as well.

I have been to Las Olas downtown on countless weekends and can attest that i have never, not once, seen it completely dead. The video that was posted upthread was much more in line with my experience. There are also lots of weekend fairs taking place on Las Olas when the place is absolutely booming. I am sure the place slows down in the summer and on weekdays, but on weekends it's usually buzzing (especially in peak season). With the adjacent Riverwalk and Flagler Village (aka "Mini Wynwood") -- and the booming Las Olas Beach a short drive away --- Ft Lauderdale is becoming quite a destination in its own right.

[Arcenal813]

Originally Posted by Fitzrovian

First you said there is nothing noteworthy in Miami outside of downtown and Miami Beach; then, after it was pointed out that that was patently false, you went to "yeah but they are disconnected". You keep jumping from goalpost to goalpost to constantly paint Miami in a negative light and downplay the postives, but I don't think you know Miami as well as you think you do.... A lot of your opinions seem to be based on misinformation or very outdated information.

Also who is comparing Miami to Montreal? The latter had a population of over half a million in 1911 when Miami was just a baby with a population of around 5,000. It's a ridiculous comparison. Miami is an adolescent of a city and needs to be evaluated in that light. That said, for a sunbelt city that has developed in the car age I'd say it is doing better than most. And as someone who has closely followed urban developments in South Florida over the last 20+ years, I'd say it's certainly moving in the right direction and deserves a lot of credit. There are brand new quality urban neighborhoods that have arisen just in the last 10-15 years over what used to be total wasteland (Brickell City Centre, Midtown, Edgewater, Wynwood) and others that have undergone major revitalization/redevelopment (Downtown Coral Gables, Coconut Grove, Miami Design District). And in terms of connectivity, while there is still clearly a long way to go -- and South Florida will no doubt remain auto-centric for a long time to come -- there have been great initiatives as well with the extension of Metrorail to the Airport, Brightline, and Tri-Rail to Downtown.



I have been to Las Olas downtown on countless weekends and can attest that i have never, not once, seen it completely dead. The video that was posted upthread was much more in line with my experience. There are also lots of weekend fairs taking place on Las Olas when the place is absolutely booming. I am sure the place slows down in the summer and on weekdays, but on weekends it's usually buzzing (especially in peak season). With the adjacent Riverwalk and Flagler Village (aka "Mini Wynwood") -- and the booming Las Olas Beach a short drive away --- Ft Lauderdale is becoming quite a destination in its own right.

Goodness... What is going on here??

Where did I say there is nothing noteworthy outside of downtown and Miami Beach??? For the purpose of this thread, and I stand by this, the only urban nodes that compare in any way, shape or form to the urbanity of Toronto, are, in fact, Downtown and Miami Beach. The rest are small and scattered.

I brought up Montreal in one post, if only to give a perspective of why I find Miami to be lacking in overall urban form, since I am from there, and that is what I am basing my perception off of. The response I got, a direct vs post claiming that the Montreal neighborhoods are tiny and not unique compared to Miami's. LOL!!! See the hilarious response I got from that one, simple post? Yes, Miami is very disconnected, and car-centric. You NEED a car to live there, unless you live downtown, or in Miami Beach.

Finally, again, Fort Lauderdale was sleepy when I last went there, during a festive weekend. That was my experience. Why does this upset you? I decided to stay there, downtown one weekend, and it was disappointingly dead during the day.

Originally Posted by Fitzrovian

You keep jumping from goalpost to goalpost to constantly paint Miami in a negative light and downplay the postives, but I don't think you know Miami as well as you think you do.... A lot of your opinions seem to be based on misinformation or very outdated information.

I know Miami quite well, as a fellow Floridian who has been in the general area since 2002. It is not anywhere near as "urban" as some here try to make it seem. There are a few pockets scattered around. That's pretty much it.


Finally, notice how the posts to which I have been responding are from a new account from a known troll from the past. Won't be long until this account is banned yet again:

https://www.city-data.com/forum/sear...rchid=45537114

https://www.city-data.com/forum/sear...rchid=45537171