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I've always thought that one reason that a human alpha-rolling a dog would not work is that the dog is smart enough to figure out that the human isn't another dog (or a wolf).
I can tell you for a fact that alpha rolling a dog works to establish leadership. How often you may have to do it depends upon the dog you are training. My rescue dog is by nature a Beta and is more than happy to follow my leadership now so I haven't had to alpha roll him in a couple of years.
First...I mistakenly followed Cesar Millan for a couple of years when the show was made available here. At the time, I had brought home a young border collie pup who, after a couple of months (and most likely before this, I was too busy to notice) was displaying signs of food guarding. I only became aware of the situation when it was already in full bloom, so to speak. Every morning I was in such a rush to catch the bus to work that I made a number one error in his training...I didn't pay attention to his eating habits, and didn't take the time to teach him that he should be okay with humans approaching his food dish, once the dinner was in it. As a result, one morning when I went to feed Izzy, I decided to add a bit of a treat to the food as he was eating. Izzy immediately stiffened when I got near, and as I went to put the treat in the dish, he lunged at me. I was completely taken aback, and the first thing that came to mind was one of Cesar's teachings...alpha roll a dog who is acting like this. So I did, quickly and forcefully putting Izzy on the ground, holding him there as he snapped and snarled. He stopped struggling after a couple of moments, and when he did I let go of him...and that's when he lunged for my arm and bit me, hard. Then he lunged for my face.
And suddenly I had an "aha" moment. I was doing extreme harm to my dog by enforcing a threatening alpha roll on him. I moved away, gave him space, gave me time to calm down, and then I almost broke down, realizing just what I had done to my little guy. He was in a highly fearful state (as all guarders are), attempting to protect his food from being taken away. My action - pinning him down and "telling him" that I was the pack leader did nothing but reinforce his belief that he did need to protect that food, that I would threaten it's safety, and that he needed to act aggressively in order to protect it. Izzy had warned me in no uncertain terms with his stiff body gestures and his stopping in the middle of eating to watch me, trying to tell me that he wasn't comfortable, that he was afraid. And I didn't see it. Instead, I not only heightened his fears with that one action, but I also broke the most precious bond of trust that we'd had.
It took me many, many months of positive training to build this back up. And I'm so ashamed to say that this happened all because I followed, and believed, someone on tv who thousands of people claimed was a good dog behaviourist, instead of following my own instincts and learning to pay attention to what my dog was trying to tell me (and to not be in such a rush, but to slow down and take time with him). It is so vital to recognize the basics and signs of fear-driven actions with dogs, to use positive reinforcement and conditioning to reverse it, and to recognize that using dominance tactics with a fear-based dog can not only heighten those fears, but will often cause irrevocable damage.
Second, I work in a field that publishes science journals. Several papers have been written on the subject of wolves and alpha rolling by respected, well-educated researchers, all sharing the same beliefs as this one in particular, a scientist who spent several years studying wolf packs and their societal interactions. One of this researcher's major findings was that the 'alpha roll' does NOT exist with wolves in the wild. It's a myth that was perpetuated years ago by certain dog trainers who assumed that wolves do this to dominate other, more subservient wolves, and because of this, then dogs can be taught in the same way. The alpha roll myth came about when submissive wolves would lie on the ground on their backs, exposing their vulnerable (belly) areas to the more dominant pack members (usually a dominant breeding pair, or a dominant female) to show that they are not a threat. The dominant wolf DOES NOT alpha roll the submissive wolf; the submissive pack member does this on his or her own. Never does one wolf force another down onto the ground into an alpha roll position. It's been debunked, yet many still believe this antiquated myth
Bit of a rant, but I just needed to get it off my chest. The alpha roll should NEVER be promoted as a training tactic for any dog, ever...no matter who says it works.
This is the problem with people and dogs. You need a trainer. Alpha rolling is more complex than you understand and like your feeding practices, you are not patient enough to do it well. You obviously misread your dog's mental state when you removed your hands. He was not calm and submissive. He was just physically trapped. There's a world of difference.
Caesar Milan's program is a TV show, that depicts extreme situation and unfortunately leads people to think the solutions are easy and quick. If you are going to attempt to use a training technique, learn it from someone who has experience, not from a 1/2 hour TV show.
I have. I've live with a wolf right next door to me on my farm. He was a wild caught wolf who was rescued. He was huge and being raised like he was a dog, which he was actually very good at. The only difference between him and a dog was that the wolf can not learn to speak human like a dog does. All communication with him had to be in canine. Body language was extremely important.
If that wolf felt he was in trouble or just that he should show he was cooperative, would roll himself over onto his back and urinate all over his own belly. Wolf pee really stinks, so he spent a lot of time in the bath tub and we were all very careful to not try to dominate him beyond just the very tiniest bit to let him know we were higher status than he was.
I had 5 very strong personality German Shepherds and not one of them ever knocked the wolf down. If they gave him notice that he was out of line, he would throw himself over on his own back and pee.
The rolling on the back is a signal of submission. If is not an act of aggression by the dominant dog.
Dominance is about attitude, not about physical strength. My alpha in my pack weighs 6 pounds. The heads of my other dogs are bigger than she is, yet the other dogs allow her to rule the pack. She couldn't roll them if she wanted to. She can't even reach their elbows without standing on her back feet but she is mentally tougher than they are so they defer to her.
The rolling on the back is a signal of submission. If is not an act of aggression by the dominant dog.
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Interesting because knocking the other dog on it's back by running over it and then grabbing it's throat is exactly how my dog used to attack. As I understand it, pit bulls often attack this way. This is my first dog with pit in him so I don't have a great deal of hands on experience with pits other than my own.
Your wolf story is cute, but not a model of how wolves behave in the wild. A "pet" wolf is in a very artificial environment.
There no convincing people who's minds are closed. Have a good day.
BTW, I'm sure my information on wolves comes from a the same basic source as yours. Neither of us live with wolves.
Every single governing body related to dog training or behavioral modification as well as every single reputable credentialed trainer, has issued position statements against alpha rolls, physical corrections, and/or punishment-based training.
About 85% of my practice consists of working with fearful, shy, reactive dogs, and/or aggressive dogs, so I see firsthand the full extent of punishment-based training and misguided attempts at trying to establish "leadership".
You assume an awful lot. I can guarantee you that you have most assuredly not learned about wolves from the "same basic source" as mine. Please share what your experience with wolves is and what respected institutions and individuals you have worked with to learn so much about wolves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever
I can tell you for a fact that alpha rolling a dog works to establish leadership. How often you may have to do it depends upon the dog you are training. My rescue dog is by nature a Beta and is more than happy to follow my leadership now so I haven't had to alpha roll him in a couple of years.
Please cite the source or basis for your belief that alpha rolls work to establish leadership (and that they work better than the far gentler forms of establishing leadership and creating trust with your dog).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever
This is the problem with people and dogs. You need a trainer. Alpha rolling is more complex than you understand and like your feeding practices, you are not patient enough to do it well. You obviously misread your dog's mental state when you removed your hands. He was not calm and submissive. He was just physically trapped. There's a world of difference.
Caesar Milan's program is a TV show, that depicts extreme situation and unfortunately leads people to think the solutions are easy and quick. If you are going to attempt to use a training technique, learn it from someone who has experience, not from a 1/2 hour TV show.
No, the problem with people and dogs lies with uneducated, misinformed, willfully ignorant, and wrong-headed people who fall back on abusive techniques (like alpha rolling) because they either don't have the skill level, don't want to take the time, or don't want to be bothered to actually have to step outside what they think they know to learn a new training method.
We have had this very same conversation with you every so often and while you like to make a lot of noise, you fail to provide even an iota of information supporting your position that alpha rolls are ok when done correctly. They are not ok and the only correct way to do them is NOT to do them at all. Ever.
You called me close-minded, and I guess that yes, my mind is closed against using harmful methods or techniques that put both dog and human in danger. For that reason I do everything I can to stay abreast of new (or new interpretations of) behavioral and training techniques, attend annual conferences, seminars by world-respected authorities, and actively work to become a more knowledgeable trainer. Yeah, I am close-minded all right.
I feel strongly that when people fall back on controversial and/or harmful techniques that they really need to be able to support their use of these methods. Anecdotal evidence in the form of your experience with one dog doesn't count. Please feel free to share your dog training or behavioral credentials- CPDT, IAABC, AABS, CAAB, or maybe you are a veterinarian with DAVCB credentials? Or maybe you have academic science-based studies that you can cite to support your assertions?
Last edited by twelvepaw; 07-14-2017 at 04:27 PM..
This is the problem with people and dogs. You need a trainer. Alpha rolling is more complex than you understand and like your feeding practices, you are not patient enough to do it well. You obviously misread your dog's mental state when you removed your hands. He was not calm and submissive. He was just physically trapped. There's a world of difference.
Caesar Milan's program is a TV show, that depicts extreme situation and unfortunately leads people to think the solutions are easy and quick. If you are going to attempt to use a training technique, learn it from someone who has experience, not from a 1/2 hour TV show.
You're right. My dog was not calm and submissive when I released him. Nor would he have been calm and submissive if I'd held him there for 15 minutes. Or half an hour. I had threatened him physically, and terrified him, and that's why he lashed out at me.
Using negative, forceful, antiquated training techniques on a dog who has fear-based issues is always going to fail. Any trainer who has any common sense around dogs will know that using threatening methods to control the dog - to get him to submit - simply doesn't make sense. A dog such as mine, who was a food guarder, was doing so out of fear. He was afraid of losing his food to anything that came near enough to his food dish. Alpha-rolling him, or any dog in this frame of mind, does nothing but reinforce that fear, and you will have one of two results: either the dog will react as mine did, and will lash out to defend himself, or they will be so frightened by the forced pinning that they will shut down completely. Both results are equally bad, as the dog learns to either become more aggressive, or they learn to no longer display warning signals. That in itself is incredibly dangerous...the dog who learns to stop giving signals is a dog who will one day attack when they feel threatened, without any warning whatsoever. And then the dog is deemed highly aggressive and dangerous, and is euthanized. Work with a dog who has any issues by instead using positive reinforcement, reward and patience, and then you will see a dog who learns how to trust. Remove the fear with positive techniques and guidance, and you will see a dog who learns not only to trust humans, but will also be able to let go of his fears and the issues that are attached to them.
Alpha rolling, and any other negative reinforcement training, has set back our relationship with our canine friends by decades, imo.
Every single governing body related to dog training or behavioral modification as well as every single reputable credentialed trainer, has issued position statements against alpha rolls, physical corrections, and/or punishment-based training.
About 85% of my practice consists of working with fearful, shy, reactive dogs, and/or aggressive dogs, so I see firsthand the full extent of punishment-based training and misguided attempts at trying to establish "leadership".
You assume an awful lot. I can guarantee you that you have most assuredly not learned about wolves from the "same basic source" as mine. Please share what your experience with wolves is and what respected institutions and individuals you have worked with to learn so much about wolves.
Please cite the source or basis for your belief that alpha rolls work to establish leadership (and that they work better than the far gentler forms of establishing leadership and creating trust with your dog).
No, the problem with people and dogs lies with uneducated, misinformed, willfully ignorant, and wrong-headed people who fall back on abusive techniques (like alpha rolling) because they either don't have the skill level, don't want to take the time, or don't want to be bothered to actually have to step outside what they think they know to learn a new training method.
We have had this very same conversation with you every so often and while you like to make a lot of noise, you fail to provide even an iota of information supporting your position that alpha rolls are ok when done correctly. They are not ok and the only correct way to do them is NOT to do them at all. Ever.
You called me close-minded, and I guess that yes, my mind is closed against using harmful methods or techniques that put both dog and human in danger. For that reason I do everything I can to stay abreast of new (or new interpretations of) behavioral and training techniques, attend annual conferences, seminars by world-respected authorities, and actively work to become a more knowledgeable trainer. Yeah, I am close-minded all right.
I feel strongly that when people fall back on controversial and/or harmful techniques that they really need to be able to support their use of these methods. Anecdotal evidence in the form of your experience with one dog doesn't count. Please feel free to share your dog training or behavioral credentials- CPDT, IAABC, AABS, CAAB, or maybe you are a veterinarian with DAVCB credentials? Or maybe you have academic science-based studies that you can cite to support your assertions?
Too long to fully answer. Properly applied alpha rolling is not punishment nor is it avoidance training like a shock collar. It is closest to giving a child a time out.
AVSAB recommends other training methods, but they don't dispute that it can be effective. I suspect most of the community reaction is due to incorrect application. I agree with their policy statement that it isn't a general training technique. Animals and people respond best to positive reinforcement, but treats aren't going to stop a fear aggressive dog in the middle of an attack on another dog.
Alpha rolling is like the old joke about how to get a mule to obey you. You can speak softly, but first you have to get his attention. Alpha rolling breaks your dog out of the lizard brain zone he reverts to at times of stress, reinforces that you are the boss, and communicates that the dog is safe in your hands. Then you can use positive reinforcement to help your dog. If the dog doesn't have severe behavior or hierarchy issues it isn't a tool that needs to be used.
Rather than seek affirmation of your beliefs from people who believe as you do, I'd suggest finding a trainer who has success with alpha rolling and observe.
To the dog, it is not punishment. The human is directly threatening the animal. To the dog, it is an attack.
Quote:
I suspect most of the community reaction is due to incorrect application. I agree with their policy statement that it isn't a general training technique.
Most trainers today would disagree with you. And I believe that the AVSAB isn't just saying that alpha rolling isn't a general training technique; their Standard of Care statement warns against its use, as the result of alpha rolling applied to a fearful dog can cause harm. Why is this? Not because it isn't applied correctly, but because the action itself, forcing a fearful dog down to the ground and pinning him there until he relaxes (submits) is not domination. It is the dog 'giving up' to the action. The main point is, it is doing nothing to address the cause of the dog's aggression in the first place. Without the cause removed, you will continue to have a dog who is fearful. Even if the dog initially may seem to respond by not snapping after being alpha rolled, that dog is still fearful, and without proper conditioning and positive reinforcement methods, the dog will always have issues. Alpha rolling can exacerbate those fears exponentially.
From the AVSAB's Standard of Care statement:
"Even in the relatively few cases where aggression is related to rank, applying animal social theory and mimicking how animals would respond can pose a problem. First, it can cause one to use punishment, which may suppress aggression without addressing the underlying cause. Because fear and anxiety are common causes of aggression and other behavior problems, including those that mimic resource guarding, the use of punishment can directly exacerbate the problem by increasing the animal’s fear or anxiety (AVSAB 2007)."
Quote:
Alpha rolling breaks your dog out of the lizard brain zone he reverts to at times of stress, reinforces that you are the boss, and communicates that the dog is safe in your hands.
"Lizard brain zone" is just another weird way of describing fear, plain and simple. Attempting to dominate or teach a dog to stop being afraid by using forceful methods is a disaster waiting to happen. Domination methods used on a fearful dog to show him that you are the boss is, imo, one of the most backward ways of training such an animal I have ever seen; it is misguided and can be incredibly harmful to the dog...NOT because "it wasn't done correctly", but because it is teaching the dog that his fears are justified, very often leading to an even more aggressive animal.
I vehemently disagree with anyone who would promote this on a dog who has these types of issues. And any trainer who would promote this, imo, doesn't understand the basics of canine behaviour.
Too long to fully answer. Properly applied alpha rolling is not punishment nor is it avoidance training like a shock collar. It is closest to giving a child a time out.
Rather than seek affirmation of your beliefs from people who believe as you do, I'd suggest finding a trainer who has success with alpha rolling and observe.
I will make this short and sweet. And just a hint: if you want to give your dog a time-out, you don't need to alpha roll them; so please don't equate the two.
Provide scientifically-based source material to support your claim that an alpha roll done correctly is "effective". In other words- Does it teach the dog the desired behavior (or simply tamp down undesirable behavior)? Does it foster trust and communication between dog-human?
Provide me with a link or video that demonstrates the "correct" way to do an alpha roll. Or provide me with a link to a reputable CPDT certified trainer that uses the alpha roll "correctly".
You have yet to directly respond to any of my statements with a rational well-formulated argument other than simply saying that it works when done correctly.
BTW- If I read you my canine CV your eyes would glaze over before I was half way through. I am a trainer with 20 + years of solid comprehensive experience; I have numerous tools in my toolbox. If you think for an instant that any trainer worth their salt would shut down any technique that would improve their skills, you are sorely mistaken.
So- please provide the requested support for your position or re-think your untenable position.
I suspect that the only reason you revived this zombie thread was just to stir the pot again, something you clearly like doing.
I will make this short and sweet. And just a hint: if you want to give your dog a time-out, you don't need to alpha roll them; so please don't equate the two.
Provide scientifically-based source material to support your claim that an alpha roll done correctly is "effective". In other words- Does it teach the dog the desired behavior (or simply tamp down undesirable behavior)? Does it foster trust and communication between dog-human?
Provide me with a link or video that demonstrates the "correct" way to do an alpha roll. Or provide me with a link to a reputable CPDT certified trainer that uses the alpha roll "correctly".
You have yet to directly respond to any of my statements with a rational well-formulated argument other than simply saying that it works when done correctly.
BTW- If I read you my canine CV your eyes would glaze over before I was half way through. I am a trainer with 20 + years of solid comprehensive experience; I have numerous tools in my toolbox. If you think for an instant that any trainer worth their salt would shut down any technique that would improve their skills, you are sorely mistaken.
So- please provide the requested support for your position or re-think your untenable position.
I suspect that the only reason you revived this zombie thread was just to stir the pot again, something you clearly like doing.
You have a lifetime invested in a position and will defend it to the end. You're like the aeronautical engineer who can prove bubblebees can't fly or the western physician discounting acupuncture. Go observe a trainer who uses alpha rolling and perhaps you'll learn. Perhaps not. I'm indifferent. I will continue to point out that properly used alpha rolling can produce benefits that positive reinforcement will not. They both have their place in a training routine.
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