Dog snaps at owner....Owner's next move is to? (shepherds, veterinarian, rescue)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What is with all these zombie threads getting resurrected. Unless someone has something pertinent or new information what is the point unless it is just someone stirring the pot
School's out, boredom sets in, it's hot...who knows. lol
Nonsense. All training needs to be administered competently and appropriately. Alpha rolling has its place, and it is something that wolves and mother dogs use to enforce obedience. It certainly isn't at all violent. You can't enforce hierarchy with treats.
Alpha rolling has no place in dog training. It's antiquated, in many cases harmful, and ignores the fact that dogs are not wolves.
You're not looking to enforce hierarchy. You're looking to modify behavior. And that starts with rewarding the behavior you want, and ignoring the one you don't. Rewards can be many things, including treats, toys or praise.
I don't want my dog to bend to my will, I want to have a relationship with my dog because they want to please me, not because they're afraid I will punish them.
What is with all these zombie threads getting resurrected. Unless someone has something pertinent or new information what is the point unless it is just someone stirring the pot.
Yup. Interesting original question - but it is way old now. And it has been resurrected before! Talk about raising the zombies!
If you watch adult wolves one is not grabbing the other and forcing it to submit.One is submitting to the other and rolling under the other .It is a submissive posture...very different then some angry human forcing a dog into a submissive position.
I adopted year old dog that had aggression issues that I did not know about until I was backing out of the humane society after adopting him. Their vet came running out when she saw me walking out with him to make sure they told me about his issues which they had not.He did not like bring examined, groomed or having his collar grabbed in an attempt to move him.He would growl and snap.
In a few weeks time I had gotten him past any aggression and sorry but I did it with treats, no alpha rolls .Dash became a dog I trusted with anyone as he actually was quite a lover once I got him past his aggression issues.I do not think he ever even growled at a human again in the rest of his 11 yrs.
The wolf that does not submit to the dominance of one of the alpha animals is violently ejected from the group. Mother dogs and wolves definitely pin pups on occasions.
I also rescued a dog with issues. He had very bad fear aggression and had almost killed two other dogs. The only solution for this dog was complete dependence upon me as the leader and protector. In the first year he twice violated my no aggression toward other dogs rule. In those two cases I put him to the ground and held him until he calmed down. During those years I also pack walked him twice a week with other dogs to teach him that other dogs, even unknown dogs, aren't necessarily a threat. Today he is much more stable, but he'll never be a dog that you just let run free at a dog park. Training is reinforced with treats and praise.
Your dog had very minor aggression issues if they were solved in a few weeks.
As I've repeatedly said on here, alpha rolling done properly is not violent and for some dogs it is absolutely a necessary tool. It should be used IMO only to correct inappropriate aggression or an indication that the dog is not accepting your leadership.
The wolf that does not submit to the dominance of one of the alpha animals is violently ejected from the group. Mother dogs and wolves definitely pin pups on occasions.
That is incorrect. It simply is not the way that wolf packs work. I don't know where you are getting this information from, but there is absolutely no evidence of this. Females absolutely teach their pups, but they are very measured corrections that are done and over; there isn't any threat of force or intimidation- she is teaching the pups, not forcing them into submission.
As I've repeatedly said on here, alpha rolling done properly is not violent and for some dogs it is absolutely a necessary tool. It should be used IMO only to correct inappropriate aggression or an indication that the dog is not accepting your leadership.
Where are you getting this information from? Please provide a scholarly source for this information.
As a side note: dogs are not wolves. They have different maturation rates, different affiliative responses to humans, and they learn differently. So- it is not valid to use wolves as a base for dog behavior; you can't say that "wolves do this, so dogs also do this". No.
Your ideas about the alpha roll are wrong. The fact that a particular method worked for you doesn't mean that it is a best practice or should be used throughout the general population. It simply means that it "worked" for you with your dog. It does not mean that it was the best way of resolving the aggression, especially fear agression- good way to get yourself bitten. I say "worked" because I suspect that it did not work to strengthen your bond with the dog or teach the dog anything.
Furthermore, when a wolf or dog goes after another canid with the intention of rolling them, it is an aggressive behavior that signals the intention of killing the other animal.
It is one thing for a wolf to voluntarily roll on its back to acknowledge a wolf that is higher in the pecking order; it is quite another thing for a canid or human to forcibly roll a dog- this is an aggressive act that signals murderous intent. For a human to do it to a frightened dog is just wrong.
Your ideas about the alpha roll are wrong. The fact that a particular method worked for you doesn't mean that it is a best practice or should be used throughout the general population. It simply means that it "worked" for you with your dog. It does not mean that it was the best way of resolving the aggression, especially fear agression- good way to get yourself bitten. I say "worked" because I suspect that it did not work to strengthen your bond with the dog or teach the dog anything.
Furthermore, when a wolf or dog goes after another canid with the intention of rolling them, it is an aggressive behavior that signals the intention of killing the other animal.
It is one thing for a wolf to voluntarily roll on its back to acknowledge a wolf that is higher in the pecking order; it is quite another thing for a canid or human to forcibly roll a dog- this is an aggressive act that signals murderous intent. For a human to do it to a frightened dog is just wrong.
I've actually seen my own dog push another onto its back and stand over them, either pushing the dog or standing over him/her and intimidating the other dog. My dog has never so much as nipped another dog; this is usually a response to the other dog having slammed him, shoved him, pushed him and continued to pester him (ignoring my dog's prior signals). Of course, I intervene; my dog is usually happy to leave a confrontation. I suppose that my dog could conceivably kill another dog (he's a dog, not a pacifist); but he's never come close to doing so.
I've always thought that one reason that a human alpha-rolling a dog would not work is that the dog is smart enough to figure out that the human isn't another dog (or a wolf).
A wolf (grey wolf) is not a dog (domesticated canid from a wolf like ancestor that is extinct which is not the grey wolf). A human (homo sapien) is not a dog. A human is not a wolf.
That's like saying because chimps share about 90% of our genes, we should raise our kids the same way they do.
First...I mistakenly followed Cesar Millan for a couple of years when the show was made available here. At the time, I had brought home a young border collie pup who, after a couple of months (and most likely before this, I was too busy to notice) was displaying signs of food guarding. I only became aware of the situation when it was already in full bloom, so to speak. Every morning I was in such a rush to catch the bus to work that I made a number one error in his training...I didn't pay attention to his eating habits, and didn't take the time to teach him that he should be okay with humans approaching his food dish, once the dinner was in it. As a result, one morning when I went to feed Izzy, I decided to add a bit of a treat to the food as he was eating. Izzy immediately stiffened when I got near, and as I went to put the treat in the dish, he lunged at me. I was completely taken aback, and the first thing that came to mind was one of Cesar's teachings...alpha roll a dog who is acting like this. So I did, quickly and forcefully putting Izzy on the ground, holding him there as he snapped and snarled. He stopped struggling after a couple of moments, and when he did I let go of him...and that's when he lunged for my arm and bit me, hard. Then he lunged for my face.
And suddenly I had an "aha" moment. I was doing extreme harm to my dog by enforcing a threatening alpha roll on him. I moved away, gave him space, gave me time to calm down, and then I almost broke down, realizing just what I had done to my little guy. He was in a highly fearful state (as all guarders are), attempting to protect his food from being taken away. My action - pinning him down and "telling him" that I was the pack leader did nothing but reinforce his belief that he did need to protect that food, that I would threaten it's safety, and that he needed to act aggressively in order to protect it. Izzy had warned me in no uncertain terms with his stiff body gestures and his stopping in the middle of eating to watch me, trying to tell me that he wasn't comfortable, that he was afraid. And I didn't see it. Instead, I not only heightened his fears with that one action, but I also broke the most precious bond of trust that we'd had.
It took me many, many months of positive training to build this back up. And I'm so ashamed to say that this happened all because I followed, and believed, someone on tv who thousands of people claimed was a good dog behaviourist, instead of following my own instincts and learning to pay attention to what my dog was trying to tell me (and to not be in such a rush, but to slow down and take time with him). It is so vital to recognize the basics and signs of fear-driven actions with dogs, to use positive reinforcement and conditioning to reverse it, and to recognize that using dominance tactics with a fear-based dog can not only heighten those fears, but will often cause irrevocable damage.
Second, I work in a field that publishes science journals. Several papers have been written on the subject of wolves and alpha rolling by respected, well-educated researchers, all sharing the same beliefs as this one in particular, a scientist who spent several years studying wolf packs and their societal interactions. One of this researcher's major findings was that the 'alpha roll' does NOT exist with wolves in the wild. It's a myth that was perpetuated years ago by certain dog trainers who assumed that wolves do this to dominate other, more subservient wolves, and because of this, then dogs can be taught in the same way. The alpha roll myth came about when submissive wolves would lie on the ground on their backs, exposing their vulnerable (belly) areas to the more dominant pack members (usually a dominant breeding pair, or a dominant female) to show that they are not a threat. The dominant wolf DOES NOT alpha roll the submissive wolf; the submissive pack member does this on his or her own. Never does one wolf force another down onto the ground into an alpha roll position. It's been debunked, yet many still believe this antiquated myth
Bit of a rant, but I just needed to get it off my chest. The alpha roll should NEVER be promoted as a training tactic for any dog, ever...no matter who says it works.
Bit of a rant, but I just needed to get it off my chest. The alpha roll should NEVER be promoted as a training tactic for any dog, ever...no matter who says it works.
Beautiful and very thoughtful post, bassetluv. Thanks for sharing your experience with us!
Your ideas about the alpha roll are wrong. The fact that a particular method worked for you doesn't mean that it is a best practice or should be used throughout the general population. It simply means that it "worked" for you with your dog. It does not mean that it was the best way of resolving the aggression, especially fear agression- good way to get yourself bitten. I say "worked" because I suspect that it did not work to strengthen your bond with the dog or teach the dog anything.
Furthermore, when a wolf or dog goes after another canid with the intention of rolling them, it is an aggressive behavior that signals the intention of killing the other animal.
It is one thing for a wolf to voluntarily roll on its back to acknowledge a wolf that is higher in the pecking order; it is quite another thing for a canid or human to forcibly roll a dog- this is an aggressive act that signals murderous intent. For a human to do it to a frightened dog is just wrong.
There no convincing people who's minds are closed. Have a good day.
BTW, I'm sure my information on wolves comes from a the same basic source as yours. Neither of us live with wolves.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
