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This is precisely what I've been talking about. Printout-packet paycheck teachers downloading their print-outs from websites. Give the kids some print-outs, then test them, and sit at your desk doing who knows what while the kids sit silently reading a print-out.
Kids are going to eventually get fed up, like this kid. And I don't blame them. Adults claim to know more than young kids, or to be able to make better decisions. Maybe it's really the other way around.
Anyone that is an educator, no matter how passionate or skilled, should be generally ashamed at the state of education. The whole model needs to be redesigned from the ground up. And I think President Obama has failed on this. He's missed a pretty excellent opportunity with online learning to reform the higher education accreditation process and promote tuition-free degree programs for younger people who might as well self-study at their own pace anyway (since the teacher's usually suck).
I really can't tell what that is about but I will agree a teacher has no business talking to the kids about her paycheck. They don't have any control over it and why are they supposed to care.
But they should give the kids debit cards and let then pay for each class by selecting the teachers they want. People who can't teach won't make money. But don't give the teachers the power to grade. Base grades on tests not given by the teacher but covering the subject taught by that teacher. If the kid can learn from the book and pass the test without going to class then he can keep the money. LOL
I love the insults being thrown around by those who are absolutely convinced that they know so much about improving educational outcomes in this country.
kids will take the easy way out. Period. They'd love a no grade system. They wouldn't do anything. They'd pick the entertaining teacher over the good one.
About the only way I see kids picking teachers working is if whether or not kids pass or fail is determined by a test administered by a third party. Then there would be incentive to learn the material for those who cared to pass.
kids will take the easy way out. Period. They'd love a no grade system. They wouldn't do anything. They'd pick the entertaining teacher over the good one.
About the only way I see kids picking teachers working is if whether or not kids pass or fail is determined by a test administered by a third party. Then there would be incentive to learn the material for those who cared to pass.
I was not saying there would not be any grades. The testing would be separate from the teachers. The students and teachers simply know what areas in what books are covered by a particular test. The teachers post what they will cover in what classes. Or maybe teachers and students could coordinate via the computer network. When a student thinks he is ready he schedules that test. If the student can learn the material and pass the test without going to any classes, so be it. There should be some date by which the student must take the test but may take it any time sooner.
If all of the tests are administered via computer it should not be difficult to manage.
I was not saying there would not be any grades. The testing would be separate from the teachers. The students and teachers simply know what areas in what books are covered by a particular test. The teachers post what they will cover in what classes. Or maybe teachers and students could coordinate via the computer network. When a student thinks he is ready he schedules that test. If the student can learn the material and pass the test without going to any classes, so be it. There should be some date by which the student must take the test but may take it any time sooner.
If all of the tests are administered via computer it should not be difficult to manage.
psik
Won't work. Students will just wait to find out from other students what was on the test or they'll take a picture of the test for their freinds who are taking it later. Computer tests really won't work. You just do what my neice did and have a party at one person's house while you all answer questions for each other while each individual logs in and takes the test.
It would have to be one test scheduled on one day with a set up that thwarted cheating. Oh, wait, we do that now...it's our state tests. We know what could be on them (they cannot put all the material on one test so they pick 12% from each science class, for example) and we plan our classes accordingly. All that is missing is pinning whether a student passes the class on whether they pass the test. The only problem with this is you could, theoretically, cover 88% of the material well and miss the 12% they actually tested of your material so you can't let last year's test scores drive your curriculum because next year, they may hit the things you teach. (We don't have time to cover all the material to any level of understanging. Our choices are, gloss over everything, or go in dept on some things by leaving others out.)
If you want to know how rampant cheating is, I'm giving a quiz on Wednesday. I wrote 7 versions of the quiz. 6 so that I have two for each clas and the 7th for the students I suspect of copying others work. THAT version looks just like one of the other versions but numbers are switched (same numbers, different places in the problem). I have to do this every year and every year I have to write new tests because pictures of last year's tests are out there. Kids will take the easy way out.
Your mistake is thinking kids WANT to learn. Most don't. The ones who appear to want to learn, want grades. They will learn to get them but, given the choice, will take the easy teacher or the liked teacher over the one who teaches well. There is zero intrinic motivation to learn among our youth. Of that I'm convinced. The only thing they are motivated to learn is creative ways to cheat. My dd tells me that the kids at my school think the teachers are just too stupid to catch them. No, we just know we won't be supported if we do and the amount of work it takes to catch the cheaters just keeps going up. We're already to the point that most colleges realize that GPA's don't mean much anymore because too many kids cheat to get them. It's really sad.
Back when I was in school, you rarely heard of cheating going on and that student got suspended for a week, was not allowed to make up any missed work and took a zero for the assignment they cheated on. The penalties for cheating were harsh so we did not do it. I've talked to my students about cheating and they act like there's nothing wrong with it. They claim everyone does it. If caught, they must be caught red handed (actually in the act of cheating or the teacher will not be supported. It is not enough to have the same answer as the person next to you even though it's wrong for your version of the test.) and then all the teacher can do is give a zero on the assignment (but admins will push to let the student have a retake).
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-13-2013 at 05:33 PM..
Meh, whatever. I'm not even a public school teacher at this point, so other than being a part of the teaching field as a private teacher and tutor, I really have no dog in this fight. I just get irritated with people who don't have any idea what they're talking about and are too proud to admit it. It's very reminiscent of the kinds of discussions that end up playing out in other discussions about political or societal topics. I think of the words of Winston Churchill: "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." Was true then and it's true now. Of course I use the reference to Churchill with the assumption that people here actually know who he was, which might be a dangerous assumption.
You're out of your flippin' gourd with that pile of manure you just threw out. It's not the topic at hand, so I won't go any further on it - but if you genuinely believe that, congratulations on showing yourself to be the type of dimmy who loves freely proclaiming to the world how ignorant you are.
Which makes this last little nugget from you all the more ironic...
It's essentially true of a lot of countries. Russia might not have been the best example, but I know for a fact that it's true of several Asian countries, and this is based on experience and data. Don't believe it? I don't care.
Won't work. Students will just wait to find out from other students what was on the test or they'll take a picture of the test for their freinds who are taking it later. Computer tests really won't work. You just do what my neice did and have a party at one person's house while you all answer questions for each other while each individual logs in and takes the test.
Do you understand what that demonstrates about what you do not know about computers?
Do you have any idea how easy it would be for a computer to select or create random questions so no two students would ever get the same test?
This would be far easier with math and physics than with history. The Battle of Gettysberg is always on the same date but a computer could randomly select from 1000 or more questions. Even though the formula for the area of a triangle remains the same a computer can change the input values so no two kids would have the same answer. Live teachers could not prevent cheating by this method because it would be far too much work. That is why separating grading from the teachers makes sense.
To me what you are saying just shows how obsolete your thinking about education with computers is.
Our problem is how to revamp the educational system to make the best use of the technology. But the traditionalists will probably fight that tooth and nail no matter what is proposed. So poor countries like India which do not have enough teachers may surpass us like Finland by making better use of tablets.
psik
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No, the students will pick the easiest teacher.
