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Or the kids correctly realize you're wasting their time.
I may have already said this earlier in the thread, but back in the 90s the governor of Hawaii looked at the college-prep curriculum of the Hawaii Public School system, looked at the industries and available jobs in Hawaii, and bluntly announced, "We're wasting our kids' time. We aren't teaching what the bulk of them need to find employment in this state."
The fact is that 70% of Americans ever get bachelor degrees. And the further fact is that this society doesn't really need more than about 30% of people to have bachelor's degrees.
What the society does need is for that 70% to get solid preparation for technical training that does not require a bachelor's degree. But all most schools, educators, and the government are actively "marketing" is a college prep curriculum...even though only 30% of kids are actually in that market.
Kids who aren't looking at professional fields know a college prep curriculum is a waste of time, but they have no other options. So they tune out.
Worse, because elementary curriculums are tracked to mesh with the college-prep high school curriculums, they don't spend as much time as they should with that 70% who need to get the basics firmly grasped before high school.
NCLB exacerbated the situation--it actually penalized schools that had successfully tech-prep programs.
Florida has leaped to the cutting edge of stupidity with requiring even elementary school students to declare college majors.
Will you please give me an example of what a college prep curriculum looks like (specific courses). I always thought it was AP classes, which are not available to all students, only the better students. Are you saying that most students are now forced to take AP classes?
What I'm seeing on this website would simply render a young person to be a somewhat functioning adult (English, math, history, science, language).
Will you please give me an example of what a college prep curriculum looks like (specific courses). I always thought it was AP classes, which are not available to all students, only the better students. Are you saying that most students are now forced to take AP classes?
What I'm seeing on this website would simply render a young person to be a somewhat functioning adult (English, math, history, science, language).
The fact is that 70% of Americans ever get bachelor degrees. And the further fact is that this society doesn't really need more than about 30% of people to have bachelor's degrees.
What the society does need is for that 70% to get solid preparation for technical training that does not require a bachelor's degree. But all most schools, educators, and the government are actively "marketing" is a college prep curriculum...even though only 30% of kids are actually in that market.
Kids who aren't looking at professional fields know a college prep curriculum is a waste of time, but they have no other options. So they tune out.
Worse, because elementary curriculums are tracked to mesh with the college-prep high school curriculums, they don't spend as much time as they should with that 70% who need to get the basics firmly grasped before high school.
NCLB exacerbated the situation--it actually penalized schools that had successfully tech-prep programs.
You would be partially wrong with this quote. Most educators - at least the ones I work with and the others I've talked to from across the country - realize the futility of making our entire HS curriculum a "college-prep" one. In TN, a few years ago, we dropped our two HS track - college-prep and tech-prep - in favor of a "college and career readiness-prep" curriculum under the advice of business leaders that stated they needed their workers that are coming straight out of high school to have the same skills as those going to college. And while I would hope that all students would have the ability to know how to learn after finishing HS, I completely disagree that the skill sets are identical. A college prep skill set is more general while a tech-prep might be more specific. (For brevity's sake, I'm being very general in my descriptions - I hope.)
I teach AP courses, so most of my students are going to college. But I truly think that we should spend most of our effort - and money - teaching the others that don't have either the emotional or intellectual maturity to go straight from HS to college. It doesn't mean little Johnny can't ever go to college. All it means is that - at his current level of maturity (in many aspects) - he doesn't have it, and would better benefit from learning something specific that would allow him to get a job right out of HS so he could support himself and become a functional member of society. And maybe, a few years down the road, Johnny has reached a level of maturity that drives him to want to go further. So we design a curriculum at the local tech-prep school that helps him get accepted to a university, by offering courses specifically designed to teach that which he missed by not going to the college-prep school.
This type of system - similar to many European countrys' systems - has been touted by many teachers that I know of. And not a single teacher that ever worked with in 2 decades has ever agreed with the state's proposal to treat all kids as if they were going to college. Not one of them agrees that they (the college- and tech-prep students) all need the same skill sets.
Last edited by Starman71; 01-02-2014 at 07:36 PM..
You would be partially wrong with this quote. Most educators - at least the ones I work with and the others I've talked to from across the country - realize the futility of making our entire HS curriculum a "college-prep" one. In TN, a few years ago, we dropped our two HS track - college-prep and tech-prep - in favor of a "college and career readiness-prep" curriculum under the advice of business leaders that stated they needed their workers that are coming straight out of high school to have the same skills as those going to college. And while I would hope that all students would have the ability to know how to learn after finishing HS, I completely disagree that the skill sets are identical. A college prep skill set is more general while a tech-prep might be more specific. (For brevity's sake, I'm being very general in my descriptions - I hope.)
I admit to using personal definition of "educator" there--different from your usage.
I'd call you a teacher, being the pointed end of the spear, as opposed to a rear-echelon "educator."
Quote:
I teach AP course, so most of my students are going to college. But I truly think that we should spend most of our effort - and money - teaching the others that don't have either the emotional or intellectual maturity to go straight from HS to college. It doesn't mean little Johnny can't ever go to college. All it means is that - at his current level of maturity (in many aspects) - he doesn't have it, and would better benefit from learning something specific that would allow him to get a job right out of HS so he could support himself and become a functional member of society. And maybe, a few years down the road, Johnny has reached a level of maturity that drives him to want to go further. So we design a curriculum at the local tech-prep school that helps him get accepted to a university, by offering courses specifically designed to teach that which he missed by not going to the college-prep school.
This type of system - similar to many European countrys' systems - has been touted by many teachers that I know of. And not a single teacher that ever worked with in 2 decades has ever agreed with the state's proposal to treat all kids as if they were going to college. Not one of them agrees that they (the college- and tech-prep students) all need the same skill sets.
I don't think we disagree.
But who is advising the state? I'd call those "educators," as they call themselves. I notice that you call yourself a "teacher."
Can you give me an example of the course work you think would be best to drop?
I'm not following this. Sorry. What classes do you think should be added for these kids?
IMHO, you've got it backwards.
For the college-prep kids, you add classes - like the AP, IB, Honors, etc., - that would force them to study at higher levels. In addition, you add classes that specifically deal with study skills and their applications - i.e. note-taking and what to do with them, reading comprehension (both fiction & non-fiction, application, data analysis, etc.). We all know that the average college student changes their majors at least once during their 4 years, so we should at least make sure that when they go, they have the general skill-sets needed for any major.
As for the tech-prep classes/students, we substitute classes, not add. It's still important that they need the 3 R's , but it's entirely possible to develop a math/reading curriculum that is profession-specific - and that is a smaller portion of the students' day. Also, by using such exams like the ASVAB, we can determine where these students' talents lie and develop content-specific classes for them. A student that has interests in the medical field, but most certainly - at his/her current level of maturity - doesn't have the ability to handle a college-prep curriculum, could be placed in a tech curriculum that, over the next several semesters, would allow them to achieve First Responder status, then an EMT license, then a basic Paramedic license, so that they have a specific skill that gives them a job right out of Vocational school.
Last edited by Starman71; 01-02-2014 at 07:17 PM..
I admit to using personal definition of "educator" there--different from your usage.
I'd call you a teacher, being the pointed end of the spear, as opposed to a rear-echelon "educator."
I don't think we disagree.
But who is advising the state? I'd call those "educators," as they call themselves. I notice that you call yourself a "teacher."
You are correct. It's more of a matter of semantics we're discussing.
Many of the educators I believe to which you are referring are either 1) college professors that have never set foot into a K-12 public institution and have no clue as to the reality of the situation, &/or 2) professional administrators - those who taught for very little of their career and quickly jumped into administration at the school or district level - and have forgotten the specific realities of the "front-line."
And then we have the "educated elite" who, because they've been educated, erroneously believe they know how to educate. These are the worst, as they have no idea of the vast difference between the two.
The tech-prep kids need more grounding in certain basics: Basic algebra and plane geometry, for instance, should be hammered until they have them down cold.
Reading should concentrate more on technical non-fiction rather than trying to create a love of reading fiction--but comprehension should still be stressed. The expository technical and business writing should be emphasized over narrative writing.
There should be business accounting, business law.
Sciences should be more functional and applied: Electronics, hydraulics, mechanics, pneumatics, building science.
It should not be difficult for a tech-prep graduate to figure the additional permissible load of a 1-inch electrical conduit, what distance from a single 2-inch vent should all the facilities of a full bathroom be in order to function properly...and why and what limitations must be placed on each facility, or quantity and component composition of brick mortar for a 50x60-foot wall that will have 1/2-inch joints between a certain composition of brick at a particular air temperature and humidity.
And do any of those to a great degree of accuracy in his head.
For the college-prep kids, you add classes - like the AP, IB, Honors, etc., - that would force them to study at higher levels. In addition, you add classes that specifically deal with study skills and their applications - i.e. note-taking and what to do with them, reading comprehension (both fiction & non-fiction, application, data analysis, etc.). We all know that the average college student changes their majors at least once during their 4 years, so we should at least make sure that when they go, they have the general skill-sets needed for any major.
Is that what typical kids are doing these days? I was under the impression that AP and honors classes were for the "bright" students and everybody else had the same curriculum, but not as advanced. You're saying all students are now taking honors? It's been some time since I've been in HS, but that would really surprise me if it were case. As for test prep, I also had no idea this was typical for today's students.
Can any of the teachers here attest to this?
Quote:
As for the tech-prep classes/students, we substitute classes, not add. It's still important that they need the 3 R's , but it's entirely possible to develop a math/reading curriculum that is profession-specific - and that is a smaller portion of the students' day. Also, by using such exams like the ASVAB, we can determine where these students' talents lie and develop content-specific classes for them. A student that has interests in the medical field, but most certainly - at his/her current level of maturity - doesn't have the ability to handle a college-prep curriculum, could be placed in a tech curriculum that, over the next several semesters, would allow them to achieve First Responder status, then an EMT license, then a basic Paramedic license, so that they have a specific skill that gives them a job right out of Vocational school.
I certainly don't think all kids should be taking honors classes, so I'm with you on that. And I do like the idea of what you propose here. Although, I would worry about kids leaving HS academically short changed. Being uneducated is like a disability imo, but I guess (I don't really know) many kids are leaving HS no differently as it is.
Is that what typical kids are doing these days? I was under the impression that AP and honors classes were for the "bright" students and everybody else had the same curriculum, but not as advanced. You're saying all students are now taking honors? It's been some time since I've been in HS, but that would really surprise me if it were case. As for test prep, I also had no idea this was typical for today's students.
Can any of the teachers here attest to this?
No, that's what I'm saying should be the curriculum for the college-prep kids. And while many states are trying to make all HS's "college-prep", this is not what is actually happening. They are making every student take courses more aligned with college prep (like chemistry), but since graduation rates are an important part of the school's report card, it is... suggested that we... do whatever we can to help these lower level kids pass. Thus, the curriculum is watered down to the point that it's no longer what it should be, and those students that should be using it as college-prep courses aren't getting the rigor they need. I've got students in a general chemistry class that have failed it twice (some have literally failed it 3 times, once with each chemistry teacher in our building). But the higher-ups want us to make it easier on them in order to get them to pass. Therefore what should be college-prep isn't, and the HS diploma some get isn't worth the paper it's printed on, all for the sake of better numbers.
I certainly don't think all kids should be taking honors classes, so I'm with you on that. And I do like the idea of what you propose here. Although, I would worry about kids leaving HS academically short changed. Being uneducated is like a disability imo, but I guess (I don't really know) many kids are leaving HS no differently as it is.
Leaving with a skill is much more important, but that skill should match the abilities with the individual. All should come away with certain basic skills that are shared. But each should come away with specific skills matching their current intellectual & emotional maturities as well.
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