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I have a hard time believing Russia bombed Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia supplied the weapons to the rebels, but for Russia to bomb the very people it wants to separate from Ukraine makes no sense? It makes a lot more sense for Ukraine to bomb "traitorous terrorists" Just like Russia bombed Chechnya, Ukraine bombed Donbass.
I know some personally, would you like to meet them?
No thank you.
I am EXTREMELY picky when meeting people in general, and particularly so, when it comes to such general offers from THAT part of the world under the current circumstances.
Quote:
I'm sure they would like to meet you
I'm sure they do, but that's what makes me even more assertive in declining the offer)))
No.
That's why I've posted that video, because it was just an example.
(I know that it's a thread about Ukraine, but Russia's issues are closely related to Ukrainian issues.)
Because in Russia the middle class ( the way it's defined in the Western countries) is notably absent.
See, Western democracies are directly related to money, the way they are distributed within the society. The more money are concentrated in fewer hands, the less democracy such society has. ( This is just the latest example -
So yes, America is a good example of it - watch closer the processes that are happening in the US society with the diminishing of the middle class. And Americans of course played a big role in establishing the oligarchy loyal to the US money in Russia. In fact Russian oligarchic government still keeps on investing in America in spite of all the confrontational rhetoric, because really Russian oligarchy and American Wall Street are joined at the hip.
When it comes to Ukrainians, I speak/listen to quite a few of them on FB (not the Nationalist zombies of course ) So intelligent people are disillusioned with the results of their "Revolution of dignity" (that's what their coup d'etat essentially called.) They see that instead of Ukrainian oligarchy loyal to Moscow, they have now oligarchy loyal to Washington. The level of corruption is still the same if not higher, the general population is poor as it was before - in fact it's getting worse now, since people are forced to pay higher energy bills, their salaries/pensions are cut, in order to serve the loans that EU/IMF is providing them. And the latest push to start selling lands to Western corporation is the one that Poroshenko keeps on resisting it seems, because it might bring the mass protests I'd guess.
So I told them you know guys, I think your problem starts really not in Kiev but in Moscow. And not because "Putin sends troops to Donbass," but because Russian upper class doesn't serve the interests of people in Russia, but their own interests, with THEIR money being kept off-shores and in foreign banks. (And that's why Ukrainians seeing all that, were reluctant to associate their country with Russia at the first place. However what they've received in return is not much better.)
They didn't even argue with me, and some guy from Western Ukraine ( judging by his language) even sent me a friendship request, lol. That was kinda unexpected as far as I am concerned)))
P.S. Oh, and don't listen to Ariete too much, our resident Russophobe)))
Yes middle class is important I guess. Though more educated people, more middle class I suppose. The video about US. I think the only difference between Obama and Trump ( and democrats and republicans in US ) is that democrats are just more polite and politically correct. Republicans are more honest. But in the end they all think the same thing. I don't want to offend anyone and that's my personal opinion. I really hope there will be more democracy in Turkey and Russia a few decades later.
I have a hard time believing Russia bombed Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia supplied the weapons to the rebels, but for Russia to bomb the very people it wants to separate from Ukraine makes no sense? It makes a lot more sense for Ukraine to bomb "traitorous terrorists" Just like Russia bombed Chechnya, Ukraine bombed Donbass.
weapons came from all over central Asia to the conflict zone. The Khazakhs emptied entire warehouses of arms and ammunition. There were people from the Donbas roving the region looking for usable arms. One old man in Siberia had a D-30 towed howitzer out behind his shed that was in working condition. He sold it to the DNR for a few thousand dollars who after rebuilding it put it in the field.
The Russians did not hinder the movement of all this stuff either.
I have a hard time believing Russia bombed Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia supplied the weapons to the rebels, but for Russia to bomb the very people it wants to separate from Ukraine makes no sense? It makes a lot more sense for Ukraine to bomb "traitorous terrorists" Just like Russia bombed Chechnya, Ukraine bombed Donbass.
Russia shelled some Ukrainian army units from inside Russia prior to their incursion in August of 2014. It wasn't a lot, but it did help them get started on their offensive to save their rebels inside Donetsk who were close to being surrounded. This is not what you described. It sure wasn't Ukraine bombing Mariupol with the rocket attack then either, unless you want us to believe Ukraine snuck artillery inside areas Russians controlled so they could attack their own positions. Once Russia got involved, the war changed and the rebel territory expanded along the Russian border to the current line, more or less.
Russia shelled some Ukrainian army units from inside Russia prior to their incursion in August of 2014. It wasn't a lot, but it did help them get started on their offensive to save their rebels inside Donetsk who were close to being surrounded. This is not what you described. It sure wasn't Ukraine bombing Mariupol with the rocket attack then either, unless you want us to believe Ukraine snuck artillery inside areas Russians controlled so they could attack their own positions. Once Russia got involved, the war changed and the rebel territory expanded along the Russian border to the current line, more or less.
Ok thanks for clearing that up, you made it seem like you think Russia bombed Donetsk, I haven't heard about Mariupol getting shelled, but if it did at least that makes logical sense. In either case both sides have dirty hands.
Russia shelled some Ukrainian army units from inside Russia prior to their incursion in August of 2014. It wasn't a lot, but it did help them get started on their offensive to save their rebels inside Donetsk who were close to being surrounded. This is not what you described. It sure wasn't Ukraine bombing Mariupol with the rocket attack then either, unless you want us to believe Ukraine snuck artillery inside areas Russians controlled so they could attack their own positions. Once Russia got involved, the war changed and the rebel territory expanded along the Russian border to the current line, more or less.
Interesting. Ukrainian incompetence had nothing to do with it eh? I mean what could go wrong when you sit an armored column in the middle of a huge field and don't even bother to dig holes or camouflage the equipment. Did the Russians destroy the column? No, the DNR artillery did for obvious reasons.
One thing you have no idea about is what really happened there in 2014. The DNR/LNR had an artilleryman's dream come true. The Ukie high command kept trying to take Doetsk in a pincer movement. Attack north and south of the city and surround it. Looked great on paper.
Too bad the opposition had control of the artillery they did. They kept it to the east of Donetsk and kept it mobile. Every time the Ukies attacked the artillery moved 5 miles set up and proceeded to blast everything on the horizon to scrap. They also had good communication with the troops on the front who would ambush columns pin them and wait for the artillery to do its thing. It was never long in coming due to how and where it was deployed.
What is really pathetic is the Kiev junta got involved. They wanted results to impress their western masters. The Ukies kept coming in the same old way and kept dying the same old way. Many Ukrainian soldiers died for no gain at all.
There's an old saying. Its not the big armies that win, its the good ones. That applies here and I seriously doubt the Russians helped much. The Ukies lost because they were incompetently led, poorly managed and not prepared at all.
Ok thanks for clearing that up, you made it seem like you think Russia bombed Donetsk, I haven't heard about Mariupol getting shelled, but if it did at least that makes logical sense. In either case both sides have dirty hands.
They clearly bombed units along the Russian border to clear out the smattering of forces that were pressuring the rebels. This is how they removed the Ukrainian army's control of its border from the Azov sea to the Siversky Donets river.
Great pains were taken to make it look like there was some organic army of defectors who fought them off from inside of Donetsk who magically appeared from two sides against the Ukrainian forces. Russia knew that our government would know they did this but their propaganda was aimed at the masses so they could deny ever doing this. Its really important to Moscow to not give away that they were directly involved in this war. The mere mention of it anywhere online attracts the troll army. They nearly got away with it until they shot down that Malaysian airliner.
To be sure, the majority of rebel ground forces are Ukrainians mostly from the east who have answered Moscow's call. Many more were Russians who were more or less volunteers. But they had Russian fire support and for a time Russian armor units fighting along side them (who then withdrew after Debaltseve was taken). It is now not needed so the Russian army is not currently operating in Ukraine other than in advisory and supply role, and probably manning certain critical systems like counter battery and air defense. However it waits across the border ready to do it all again if Ukraine wants to take control of its borders. It will likely stay this way until either Putin retires or Ukraine elects a government that wants to give Donbas away.
They clearly bombed units along the Russian border to clear out the smattering of forces that were pressuring the rebels. This is how they removed the Ukrainian army's control of its border from the Azov sea to the Siversky Donets river.
Great pains were taken to make it look like there was some organic army of defectors who fought them off from inside of Donetsk who magically appeared from two sides against the Ukrainian forces. Russia knew that our government would know they did this but their propaganda was aimed at the masses so they could deny ever doing this. Its really important to Moscow to not give away that they were directly involved in this war. The mere mention of it anywhere online attracts the troll army. They nearly got away with it until they shot down that Malaysian airliner.
To be sure, the majority of rebel ground forces are Ukrainians mostly from the east who have answered Moscow's call. Many more were Russians who were more or less volunteers. But they had Russian fire support and for a time Russian armor units fighting along side them (who then withdrew after Debaltseve was taken). It is now not needed so the Russian army is not currently operating in Ukraine other than in advisory and supply role, and probably manning certain critical systems like counter battery and air defense. However it waits across the border ready to do it all again if Ukraine wants to take control of its borders. It will likely stay this way until either Putin retires or Ukraine elects a government that wants to give Donbas away.
Thanks for stating your view point, for a long time I thought people such as your self believed Russia came in rolling with their tanks and flew their jet planes and bombed Donetsk and Lugansk and killed every person that got in their way. But now that you explained it, it sounds logical and realistic, I don't know all the facts so I don't know what you are saying is true but I'm pretty sure most of what you said is.
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