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Couldn’t that be said about any civil war? The west supported rebels in Syria and Libya, if it weren’t for the west Assad and Gaddafi would’ve been able to get a handle on it, just like with out Russian support in Ukraine, donbas would be under Ukrainian authoritiy by now.
Yes, you can say pretty much the same, when talking about countries, on whose turf the proxy wars are fought.
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But also the rebels don’t have as many local supporters as Russians claim. I doubt Odessa and Kharkiv want to join “novorossiya.”
I don't think so either.
They understand by now that Donbass is Putin's project, the land that he bargains with his "Western partners" and through which he manipulates the politics in that part of the world.
And who wants to be a sitting duck, or rather to become one?
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I think most Ukrainians still believe in a united Ukraine even if they are ethnically Russian. I have an Uncle who was born in Donbas area and grew up in Crimea and he is half Russian half Ukrainian and he is very anti Putin/Russia because he see’s that their goal is to split the country in half.
And I think that it's a big question.
Had Putin kept his promise to protect Eastern Ukrainians from the new nationalist government, and gave them an option to join Russia BACK THEN, when the hostilities just started, we don't know what Eastern Ukrainians would have chosen out of their free will. But since he betrayed these people, it's a big question now what did they REALLY think about joining Russia. They are clearly not free to express their opinions now, since Ukrainian SBU is watching population in terms of their "loyalty" to the new regime, so we will never know what the INITIAL will of these people was, at the brink of the events.
"I will tell you about the patriotism of the youth. I've decided to replace all 700 servicemen under the age of 20 in the ATO zone. In the end, only 11 agreed to leave, the rest stayed"
Really? How many of those youth fled when the drafts were brought out. 10s of thousands. Many simply bought their way out with their rich parents money. Adults fled the country in droves too. Its all over the news all you need to do is a google search.
Doctors were falsifying documents for money, fathers need to feed their kids and went to Europe.
If what Uzhenko said is even true we all know how gullible an 18 year old can be. Especially an 18 year old scared to death and hopped up on hormones. I'll still take the liberty of calling it garbage and propaganda.
I just wanted some context, all you sent me was a video, a lot of wrong assumptions can be made if taken out of context.
Actually, the funny thing is, initially it WAS "taken out of context." Our resident Russian Russophob Ariete ( I think) posted this video first back in the day, citing the horrors and savagery of Russian population, beating up "good Ukrainian boys." Or something like that.
But I've listened to this video, and my jaw dropped.
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Also Those people were interrogated somewhat harshly, whether justified or not. The people of Kharkov were obviously very angry and wanted to hear only one narrative which was somebody paid a bunch of people to start a ruckus and so those people who were round up weren't going to be let go of until they "admitted" that they were paid and whatever else the people of Kharkov wanted to hear. It is very possible that is the case, but I still wouldn't consider that an objective interrogation, lots of emotions getting in the way.
This is not the "interrogation" so to speak, but rather a public show, after the youth was apprehended. They were apparently armed ( that's why the mayor of the city ( you see him with the speakerphone at the beginning of the video,) is showing a bullet, asking where is the Ukrainian TV when you need it.
At 7:31 the guy in the video is grabbing one of the youth by hair, stating that he was the one shooting at them, when they were defenseless; "And after that you ( expletive) is asking for mercy?"
They really ask them general questions - where did they come from ( most seem to be not from Western Ukraine, but Poltava region,) how much they were paid ( one of them admits he was payed 200 grivnas, after which he is smacked on his head,) - things like that. And they demand that this youth would pray in front of god and ask for forgiveness from the people of Kharkov. Which they do - well, some of them.
So it's really not "interrogation" the way you pictured it.
So if they were shooting at unarmed people, (not to mention trying to take over the government building,) the reaction was quiet justified. (However if you'll pay attention at the end - a girl and a young guy are giving out/using medication for this youth, so as they say, really- "Russians' bark is worse than their bite.")
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Also if you look at the presidential election there isn't a clear demarcation line visible. Poroshenko surprisingly won everywhere, why another oligarch would win after kicking out the previous baffles me, but that's Ukraine I guess.
Right. "Surprisingly" is a key word here.
After all what kind of "elections" can we talk after the coup d'etat and hostile takeover of the region?
The thugs in that video don't represent the "people of kharkov". I could post a video of Russian speaking youths in Kharkov attacking the last pro Russian demonstrations and say those guys were Kharkov kicking out the Russian "separatists" too. No sorry but Tsaryev lives in Moscow because those are his masters. He would be killed literally if he tried to return home.
The thugs in that video don't represent the "people of kharkov". I could post a video of Russian speaking youths in Kharkov attacking the last pro Russian demonstrations and say those guys were Kharkov kicking out the Russian "separatists" too. No sorry but Tsaryev lives in Moscow because those are his masters. He would be killed literally if he tried to return home.
Another question - where did the "milizia" inscription on the police uniform go, which you clearly see in 2014 video?
Are you sure your video is from 2014 and not a fake made in "free democratic" Ukraine?
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No sorry but Tsaryev lives in Moscow because those are his masters. He would be killed literally if he tried to return home.
Oh, I remember when the mob was attacking him while he was at the TV station, where he was invited for a political show.
He was not allowed to speak in "Free democratic Ukraine" you see, because he was not willing to live under the new American masters I assume.
I mean he laid it out pretty nicely what was going on in Ukraine before the coup, didn't he?
Did they catch this "Russian spy" before of after pro-Russian rally?
Another question - where did the "milizia" inscription on the police uniform go, which you clearly see in 2014 video?
Are you sure your video is from 2014 and not a fake made in "free democratic" Ukraine?
Oh, I remember when the mob was attacking him while he was at the TV station, where he was invited for a political show.
He was not allowed to speak in "Free democratic Ukraine" you see, because he was not willing to live under the new American masters I assume.
I mean he laid it out pretty nicely what was going on in Ukraine before the coup, didn't he?
No this man was part of the Russian gang who forced their way into city hall trying to claim it for their fake Russian republic. He was under arrest at the time of this video for trespassing. Soon after this, the mayor Kernes reasserted control in the name of Ukraine (for which he took a bullet). Gepa is many things, but a fascist western Ukrainian he certainly isn't. I digress on Kharkov (and yes I've been there, beautiful place)... If you're Russian or Ukrainian then by now you are realizing that I'm someone who knows a lot about eastern Ukraine. Banderites have no place in Kharkov but neither do Russian dodiks. An inconvenient video to be sure.
Milizia is the Russian word for militia, which under the Tsarist days was their version of police. Since Ukraine opted to modernize its police force, part of that was to get rid of them and replace them with politsia (I'll let you figure out what that stands for). Thousands of corrupt police were fired.
How to explain why the people spoke Russian who tore down the Lenin statue in Kharkov? I just watched the videos on the channel you linked.
No this man was part of the Russian gang who forced their way into city hall trying to claim it for their fake Russian republic. He was under arrest at the time of this video for trespassing. Soon after this, the mayor Kernes reasserted control in the name of Ukraine (for which he took a bullet).
Huh? Who is telling you all these fairy-tales?
The reason the crowd ( i.e. people of Kharkov) stormed their government building, was to get rid of the pro-Kiev gang that took over it. ( No matter how much Kernes was trying to prevent this outcome, hoping that the police would do the job.)
Here is the last scene of the event - do you recognize the youth now that you saw in the first video I posted earlier?
Gepa is many things, but a fascist western Ukrainian he certainly isn't.
Gepa is a well-known turn-coat, who tried to sit on two chairs. That's why he got a bullet after all.)))
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I digress on Kharkov (and yes I've been there, beautiful place)... If you're Russian or Ukrainian then by now you are realizing that I'm someone who knows a lot about eastern Ukraine. Banderites have no place in Kharkov but neither do Russian dodiks.
I realize that you are relying on some people to provide you with information, and your indormation is obviously skewed, if not to say plain wrong.
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An inconvenient video to be sure.
Milizia is the Russian word for militia, which under the Tsarist days was their version of police. Since Ukraine opted to modernize its police force, part of that was to get rid of them and replace them with politsia (I'll let you figure out what that stands for). Thousands of corrupt police were fired.
*Sigh*
Are you saying that they went through all those changes in one day, right after the coup d'etat? If not, then your "inconvenient video" is a fake, and totally out of context, since you can see in other videos of 2014 that Ukrainian police is wearing the inscription "milizia" on their uniforms. Which is already absent in the video you posted. Hence - it's not 2014, but most likely Poroshenko's Ukraine, where they are already hunting for "Russian spies."
P.S. "Milizia" was a name for police back in SOVIET times; in "Tzarist times" the policemen were called "gendarms" - the French way or "gorodovoy.")))
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How to explain why the people spoke Russian who tore down the Lenin statue in Kharkov? I just watched the videos on the channel you linked.
You mean the statue that Kernes took under his "personal protection" ?
It might be a case, since their language doesn't sound typical for Kharkov ( I saw the same case in Odessa.)
But logically speaking, there should have been at least SOME locals, rooting for the new government in Kiev.
I saw the rally even in Donetsk back in 2014 - about 700 people or so. They wrote about them in American media too.
*Sigh*
Are you saying that they went through all those changes in one day, right after the coup d'etat? If not, then your "inconvenient video" is a fake, and totally out of context, since you can see in other videos of 2014 that Ukrainian police is wearing the inscription "milizia" on their uniforms. Which is already absent in the video you posted. Hence - it's not 2014, but most likely Poroshenko's Ukraine, where they are already hunting for "Russian spies."
P.S. "Milizia" was a name for police back in SOVIET times; in "Tzarist times" the policemen were called "gendarms" - the French way or "gorodovoy.")))
You mean the statue that Kernes took under his "personal protection" ?
It might be a case, since their language doesn't sound typical for Kharkov ( I saw the same case in Odessa.)
But logically speaking, there should have been at least SOME locals, rooting for the new government in Kiev.
I saw the rally even in Donetsk back in 2014 - about 700 people or so. They wrote about them in American media too.
*sigh, the change from militsia to politisa was rolled out over time in 2015. They didn't fire all the police on day one. There were more than gorodovoy in Tsarist times too, Ukraine also had militsia (as did many European countries). I'm trying to understand your reason for focusing on the police reforms so I asked friends in Ukraine. I found out that Russian propaganda has a lot of resources at hand and worked a conspiracy theory up about the video to mislead Russians. LOL, those guys are wearing the patrol service uniforms of the Kharkov police which matches the pre reform uniforms at the time. Not all police jackets had the word militisia in 2014 or any year before that, so the lack of it wouldn't be strange to a normal observer. You can clearly see the patch where it goes, it was missing on the one guy. Still had the arm insignia though. The green car is the exact same I saw in Kharkov, that's a pre reform patrol service (patrolna sluzhba, sorry for my poor Ukrainian) car.
Yep Kernes wanted to protect the statue but once Crimea was forcibly taken and Donbas invaded, who can blame Ukrainians for ripping down a symbol of Russian oppression. Lenin's chekhists killed many in Kharkov.
Deconstructing Russian lies is a lot of fun. There is no way in that video you can say the language doesn't sound typical of Kharkov. There is no Kharkov accent or set way they speak. Odessa yes, but that's not the subject here. People in Kharkov come from all over due to the many universities in town. I bet you haven't even been. Its a huge city with many different people living there of various political leanings. I have no doubt many of them were cheering for Russia after the revolution but the people who won and retook the city hall for Ukraine were the majority of the people also living there. Say what you want about it, I already know what is real. Yeah Kharkov was divided as was much of eastern Ukraine but that changed AFTER the Russian invasion.
*sigh, the change from militsia to politisa was rolled out over time in 2015. They didn't fire all the police on day one. There were more than gorodovoy in Tsarist times too, Ukraine also had militsia (as did many European countries). I'm trying to understand your reason for focusing on the police reforms so I asked friends in Ukraine. I found out that Russian propaganda has a lot of resources at hand and worked a conspiracy theory up about the video to mislead Russians. LOL, those guys are wearing the patrol service uniforms of the Kharkov police which matches the pre reform uniforms at the time. Not all police jackets had the word militisia in 2014 or any year before that, so the lack of it wouldn't be strange to a normal observer. You can clearly see the patch where it goes, it was missing on the one guy. Still had the arm insignia though. The green car is the exact same I saw in Kharkov, that's a pre reform patrol service (patrolna sluzhba, sorry for my poor Ukrainian) car.
Yep Kernes wanted to protect the statue but once Crimea was forcibly taken and Donbas invaded, who can blame Ukrainians for ripping down a symbol of Russian oppression. Lenin's chekhists killed many in Kharkov.
Deconstructing Russian lies is a lot of fun. There is no way in that video you can say the language doesn't sound typical of Kharkov. There is no Kharkov accent or set way they speak. Odessa yes, but that's not the subject here. People in Kharkov come from all over due to the many universities in town. I bet you haven't even been. Its a huge city with many different people living there of various political leanings. I have no doubt many of them were cheering for Russia after the revolution but the people who won and retook the city hall for Ukraine were the majority of the people also living there. Say what you want about it, I already know what is real. Yeah Kharkov was divided as was much of eastern Ukraine but that changed AFTER the Russian invasion.
What a strange person you are..
Don't you understand by now, that unlike you, I don't need to "consult" with some friends in Ukraine, so that they'd coach me and tell me what I need to know or think?
I can simply go to Youtube and watch the whole set of events, step by step, the whole two hours of it ( if I wish) and to listen to each and every word who said what and when. Like here for example.
I can hear that in his public speeches, Gepa is trying to avoid politics all together as much as possible, that he is basically sh*tting in his pants, because anyone ( be that Russians if they decide to step in,) or new Ukrainian government ( if it takes over for real) will be able to held his words against him down the line. Gepa is all about biz ( granted, in spite of all the corruption of his administration he did A LOT for the city, so people were happy with him,) so he avoids talking politics. HOWEVER, at the same time he invites to the stage the speakers one after another, who say precisely what the crowd WANTS TO HEAR at that point in time. And the speakers are talking about the "interests of Kharkov," about establishing close ties with near-by regions of South-Eastern Ukraine AND Russian Southern region.They talk about the need for FEDERALIZATION of Ukraine - the same idea that MP Tzaryov was rooting for by the way. And why wouldn't he? Being an educated guy and successful businessman, he was aware of all complexity of Ukrainian economy, the reality of it in the Eastern and Western parts, so he was suggesting what was only logical under the circumstances. But NOOOOOO that what was logical, was going against the party line of the nationalists in Kiev, so they've almost murdered him. I don't know where he lives now - in Moscow or Crimea, since such free and democratic social media site as Face Book banned his page, following the requests of "Ukrainian friends" of course. But I am happy for him, because at least he is still alive. Unlike a lot of other folks in Ukraine, that happened to disagree with the nationalists "party line."
But back to Kharkov. What I hear in this video, is how happy people are to see Russian flags ( as a sign of moral support I would guess, and may be - as a hope of unification. But we will never know now for sure, because at that point in time such option hasn't been offered to them.) What I do know however, is that by the end of the day this very crowd breaks into the government building and throws out the intruders, representing new Kiev's government. ( The way those intruders were treated - that you could see in my first, initial video.) However according to you and your "Ukrainian friends" this crowd doesn't represent the people of Kharkov. Instead, you pull out some obscure video with three persons in it and voila - that's the true representation of Kharkov's population. I have no idea where this video came from, in what context and year, that's why I questioned it, and NOT because I was not aware of Ukrainian police reform.
So that's that. Another thing I wonder is why do you think that I don't understand the variety of dialects that are heard throughout all these videos? What makes you think that I am not aware of what a multi-cultural place Eastern Ukraine is? With that being said, I know the difference of "Putin out" said in Russian and Ukrainian ways, particularly when it comes to central regions/western regions of Ukraine. So I pointed that the particular video of anti-Russian protest you've posted, was SPECIFICALLY in Ukrainian language (which is less common in Kharkov,) while the rest of pro-Russian rallies that you see here, in front of the Russian embassy
Am I trying to say at that there were no anti-Russian, pro-Kiev rallies in Kharkov? Of course they were. They were held even in Donetsk as I've already said. The question is the amount of people supporting pro and anti-Russian rallies, the ratio of population supporting it. Because that's what "democracy" is all about - what the majority prefers.
I hope we are clear now, so you can go back to your "deconstruction of Russian lies." Deconstruct your heart out, since you consider it a "fun."
Me - I have the Octoberfest coming))))
I had to ask a friend in Ukraine for the reason why the video was propagated by Russian agents as being "fake". That was all. It was one video of one guy and I'm surprised it caught the attention of Russia to devote resources to deconstruct it as you have. There are many more videos with many thousands of Kharkovites marching for Ukraine in 2014 after the Russians were not allowed to attack people there anymore. You know this but you are clinging to the early March days when Russian agents had a hold of the city and brought out the 5000 people out of over a million who still cling to the USSR (and you know that's what it was really about). Look at your videos, what is the average age of them, really?
Now I know, you are still clinging to their fake ideas from 3.5 years ago. No matter what you want people to believe, NOW the majority of people in Eastern Ukraine don't want to be Russia, they want to be Ukraine and even part of Europe since Russia attacked them. Sorry if it makes you mad but now its not the same as it was in March of 2014. This is Putin's fault for attacking Ukraine to make them hate him. Sure many old people wish it were different but not because they love Russia, but because they miss when it was one nation (the USSR). That's done and dead, there is no going back and these old people clinging to that are dying off too. Young Ukrainians in Kharkov don't want what Putin is selling. Sorry again, but that's life. I know, save your hands from typing you will trot out the Russian lie that nazis in Ukraine won't allow Kharkov residents to express their desire to be with Russia... that is fake news.
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Our resident Russian Russophob Ariete ( I think) posted this video first back in the day, citing the horrors and savagery of Russian population, beating up "good Ukrainian boys." Or something like that. 
