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Are you deliberately trying to confuse what I am saying? I thought it was very clear. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt due to language issues, but I'm starting to wonder due to this video which is misleading in how you present it. You know this video is about people in some town responding to Yanukovich turning down the EU association agreement. That happened in November of 2013. I don't fully understand the video as they are speaking Ukrainian (the "who isn't jumping is a Moskal" thing I saw this occur in Minsk in 2014). Looks like a student thing... I don't know what the point is of bringing it up as it has nothing to do with what I was saying since this is in western Ukraine. In places like this many people were probably anti Russian prior to 2014. I am talking about the millions of Ukrainians who lived in the south and east who held pro Russian views (even after the coup in 2014) until the invasion/ limited war in 2014. They are the ones who Putin turned into not pro Russians by means of his military. Do you understand that?
Interestingly, Paul Manafort helped reform the core of the Party of Regions into the Opposition Bloc but they lost a lot of support due to their pro Russian viewpoint. Now there are others who stepped into the void because there are many people in the east and south who are not anti Russian, but not pro Russian either. Like the Nash Krai and Revival parties. If you ever want to see a party in control of Ukraine that is NOT anti Russian then there needs to be peace in the Donbas.
Well I have always said that a thief is a capitalist with a higher profit margin. What the west wants is the destruction of the Russian Federation. If all the provinces are separated then it will be much easier to steal all those goodies in the taiga. It's about expansion of markets by whatever means it may take. Including war from the Baltic to the Pacific.
Really? You think that's what the US is after, there--natural resources? That's what the elderly Communist Party holdovers were saying, in the early-to-mid 90's, but the foreigners who wasted no time in entering to harvest the natural resources, by hook or by crook, I might add, were the Japanese and Koreans. The Americans were mainly there to sell stuff; you know how Capitalism requires ever-expanding markets? The one exception--ok, two exceptions, being: oil and marine resources (fish, crab).
( Sorry to bring it in, but one thing I've noticed in Soviet Russia long time ago, is that a lot of those rabid anti-Soviet people were often the most devoted believers in the system in their past.)
I think I explained why already. Not because of the coup in Kiev (not Russia's fault). Not because of Crimea (I feel it was legitimately Russia's interest). But attacking from inside Russia and using fake insignia (soldiers on vacation?) and the constant lies to stir people in Ukraine against each other. Especially the lies that anyone resisting the rebels in the east are only from the west. They are NOT. Sending groups across the border to spread a counter revolution... It was a step too far. I also don't like how they blamed my country for this. The US had nothing to do with this at all, other than to support the idea of non interference by Russia in Ukraine. Blame Europe for the coup if you want, they had a role in the matter. Yeah, now we're involved training Ukraine and helping them defend themselves. And I get that Russia had to pretend that Ukrainians didn't want to fight back against this Russian sponsored rebellion but that's what actually happened. Those were local Ukrainians in Odessa who snuffed out the Novorossiya project there too, not banderites shipped in from Lutsk or whatever.
You know this video is about people in some town responding to Yanukovich turning down the EU association agreement. That happened in November of 2013. I don't fully understand the video as they are speaking Ukrainian (the "who isn't jumping is a Moskal" thing I saw this occur in Minsk in 2014). Looks like a student thing... I don't know what the point is of bringing it up as it has nothing to do with what I was saying since this is in western Ukraine. In places like this many people were probably anti Russian prior to 2014.
Yes, my video shows it. This is important for understanding what is happening.
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Originally Posted by DKM
I am talking about the millions of Ukrainians who lived in the south and east who held pro Russian views (even after the coup in 2014) until the invasion/ limited war in 2014. They are the ones who Putin turned into not pro Russians by means of his military. Do you understand that?
They made a decision for themselves - they supported pro-Western coup. The decision implies responsibility. Yes, they ceased to have pro-Russian views and stopped to believe in Russia. But Russia also stopped believing in them. And I'm afraid it's much sadder.
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Originally Posted by DKM
Interestingly, Paul Manafort helped reform the core of the Party of Regions into the Opposition Bloc but they lost a lot of support due to their pro Russian viewpoint. Now there are others who stepped into the void because there are many people in the east and south who are not anti Russian, but not pro Russian either. Like the Nash Krai and Revival parties. If you ever want to see a party in control of Ukraine that is NOT anti Russian then there needs to be peace in the Donbas.
I do not believe in a restoration of good relations between the countries. Most likely, there are only two ways: inclusion of Ukraine in Russia (or part of Ukraine with a separation of Western regions into a separate state) or a continuation of the conflict for decades (as in Korea) with a gradual removal of Russian culture (Russian language) from the territory of Ukraine.
A better analogy to use would Turkish Greek relations, Cyprus in this analogy would be eastern Ukraine. Greece has a historical deep hatred of Turkey and Turkey's invasion of Cyprus in 1974 made things even worse. It took earthquakes hitting both countries hard in 1999 for relations to smooth out and Greece has been one of the strongest supporters of Turkeys entry into the EU. Something similar might happen between Ukraine and Russia, and probably will also take about 30 years for relations to come back to normal.
Yes, my video shows it. This is important for understanding what is happening.
They made a decision for themselves - they supported pro-Western coup. The decision implies responsibility. Yes, they ceased to have pro-Russian views and stopped to believe in Russia. But Russia also stopped believing in them. And I'm afraid it's much sadder.
I do not believe in a restoration of good relations between the countries. Most likely, there are only two ways: inclusion of Ukraine in Russia (or part of Ukraine with a separation of Western regions into a separate state) or a continuation of the conflict for decades (as in Korea) with a gradual removal of Russian culture (Russian language) from the territory of Ukraine.
You seem reasonable. The only part you are missing is the WHY Ukrainians turned away from Russia. Its not because of the reasons you are told or are presenting. Understanding this is key to the eventual restoring of relations which I know will happen. Even the USA and Britain became friends again, even special brothers in arms. I'd love to cheer for Russia at the Olympics again someday.
Really? You think that's what the US is after, there--natural resources? That's what the elderly Communist Party holdovers were saying, in the early-to-mid 90's,
And in fact they were right Ruth, (even though during Soviet times I thought that all these old die hard old Soviet gizzards were plain crazy.)
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but the foreigners who wasted no time in entering to harvest the natural resources, by hook or by crook, I might add, were the Japanese and Koreans.
I'm sure by now you can add the Chinese to this list, but that's a slightly different story.
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The Americans were mainly there to sell stuff; you know how Capitalism requires ever-expanding markets? The one exception--ok, two exceptions, being: oil and marine resources (fish, crab).
Americans were not there just to "sell stuff" - they were there first of all to assure that Russia is weakened and separated from the rest of republics ( Yavlinsky wrote about it - what a potential disaster from economic point of view this separation was, but he mentioned that our "western colleagues" were INSISTING ON IT ( can't find off top in what paper exactly,) and that's how the Belovezha accords came about, behind the backs of former Soviet citizens and AGAINST THEIR WILLS.
That was step number one. Step number two was the assurance that the following economic reforms go the way, convenient for the US corporations - i.e. that the coveted natural resources of the country would go into the hands of few devoted "Yeltsin's supporters," and from there, American government/corporations could strike deals with these very supporters. That's where "American shareholders" were coming into place. I mean the situation with Khodorkovsky and his Yukos was a perfect example of it all.
I mean too bad that Putin spoiled all the game, right?
Really? You think that's what the US is after, there--natural resources? That's what the elderly Communist Party holdovers were saying, in the early-to-mid 90's, but the foreigners who wasted no time in entering to harvest the natural resources, by hook or by crook, I might add, were the Japanese and Koreans. The Americans were mainly there to sell stuff; you know how Capitalism requires ever-expanding markets? The one exception--ok, two exceptions, being: oil and marine resources (fish, crab).
Yes, the resources are a big part of it. How do you subdue a country? You do it by creating instability in some form. There are many tools from bombs to NGOs that support civil disobedience on a large scale like we saw in the Ukraine. Insurrections and rebellions too like in Chechnya.
Russia in one piece has the capability to demand terms in business agreements and treaties that are equitable and fair. Russia divided is just a bunch of weaker nations squabbling among themselves for the best deals.
Stability is the key. With people living in a stable environment great things can be accomplished. Why is America so rich? STABILITY.Horrible destructive war has never touched our shores. Our cities were never leveled and never burned to the ground. We built our railroads once, our highways once.
You can add to this another reason the US wants to destabilize Russia. Its growing relations with China. Unfortunately that horse has left the barn and it seems there is little the west can do to stop it. What we need to fear is the thrashing as the US comes to realize that the gorilla breathing down the neck is called change. The US has screwed up bigtime alienating Russia.
The US has no desire to rule over the world. We protect half the world from threats (legacy of the USSR threatening to conquer the world through fake communist revolutions) but all we want to do is spread stability (democracy) and make money through legit commerce (which requires rule of law). That's a direct threat to the mafia style/ authoritarian model of government so the countries which feel threatened by us are run this way.
The fact is, people have the best life where our system has spread. From Taiwan to Italy. Japan to Finland... I'm not saying its only the US which created this system but we protected it from the Soviets so its kind of our world order now. The reason former Warsaw Pact countries lean to the west is once they are run by their people, they tend to vote for the better life that our system brings. We don't have to bribe anyone or conquer anyone with a military. Again, a threat to Mr. Putin because he doesn't bring a better life to the majority of Russians and he knows it. His system is inferior to the EU so the Ukraine crisis is really a reflection of his inability to compete with it.
Best laugh I had today, this week as a matter of fact.
Are you deliberately trying to confuse what I am saying? I thought it was very clear. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt due to language issues, but I'm starting to wonder due to this video which is misleading in how you present it.
Oh I see - you'd like to present it YOUR way, right?
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You know this video is about people in some town responding to Yanukovich turning down the EU association agreement.
So?
People with brains, in civilized countries would rally against the politician whose decision they don't like.
But what do these monkeys do instead?
Start jumping up and down, chanting "Hang the Russian" and "The one who is not jumping is a Russian."
Which would be all fun, except for here you already see the banner of the Nationalist Ukrainian organization present. And this very organization, "Pravy sector" will be later throwing the Molotov's cocktails in Kiev, during the coup d'etat.
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That happened in November of 2013. I don't fully understand the video as they are speaking Ukrainian (the "who isn't jumping is a Moskal" thing I saw this occur in Minsk in 2014). Looks like a student thing...
OK, before you'll have to run to your Ukrainian friends for explanations, let me translate what they chant here (other than "Hang the Russian")
They chant "ONE LANGUAGE, one nation, one motherland - this is Ukraine."
So they are basically sending a signal to the South-East of the country, that Russian is not a legitimate language in Ukraine. Which will be confirmed by the first law issued by the new "Democratic government" in Kiev, when the state status will be stripped away from Russian language. Which, in turn, will set the South-East of the country ( Crimea including) all up in arms.
But you of course ( and your "Ukrainian friends") will keep telling us fairy-tails that it was all "Putin" that created conflict in Ukraine...
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I don't know what the point is of bringing it up as it has nothing to do with what I was saying since this is in western Ukraine. In places like this many people were probably anti Russian prior to 2014. I am talking about the millions of Ukrainians who lived in the south and east who held pro Russian views (even after the coup in 2014) until the invasion/ limited war in 2014. They are the ones who Putin turned into not pro Russians by means of his military. Do you understand that?
Oh I see. So they hold "pro-Russian views prior to 2014, but when Russia *invaded the country* ( i.e. SUPPORTED the PRO-RUSSIAN case,) all of a sudden "millions of Ukrainians" became "anti-Russian." Now how did this happen, what's the logic behind it, explain to me please)))
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Interestingly, Paul Manafort helped reform the core of the Party of Regions into the Opposition Bloc but they lost a lot of support due to their pro Russian viewpoint.
Oh, so Americans are in charge of the politics in "free, independent Ukraine" now?
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