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I think you are confusing couple of things here Maxim.
Authorities are not supposed to do "everything," but it's their JOB to design, implement and control the compliance with safety measures.
If the tenants of your building want to cut the ladder going through their balconies - it's their own personal choice. If one of them dies during fire and during the investigation it's going to be pointed out, that the lack of such ladder led to family's death - oh well.
But when people are going to public places, such as this shopping mall, they should expect reasonable safety measures, such as escape routs during fire, and particularly when the main doors are locked during movie time.
Business ( any business) is geared primarily towards making profits, not to watch out for public safety ( because investing in such measures cuts business profits.) But that's where the civilized society steps in, and pays the government officials that they'd design those safety measures and observe their compliance.
When the government officials put a business that hosts thousands of people (and makes profits much higher than what is officially claimed) on a "compliance monitory vacation" - i.e. let it get away with no safety check ups for years, it's called CORRUPTION with a big "C," not "обычное распиздяйство."
When the business is not keeping up with safety measures, it saves money; these savings are shared with officials. As this case shows us - at the expense of ordinary people's lives.
You say that the building project was mistaken and corrupt officials signed this project. Which mistakes were made? I'm not an expert, but I'm almost sure that the project was typical for all such malls.
Controller closed the door during a movie. This is not corruption. Guard turned off the alarm due to false positives. This is not corruption. This is a system of people's perception of the world.
Officials can tighten checks. But then Navalny will again yell that the business is under pressure. Blaming Putin is very simple. But I think, that most vile in this situation is the use of tragedy for political purposes. Changes are necessary. And punishment of those responsible. But this should be a quiet job, not a PR in the square.
hat what Russians do is just not worry about it that much. The cost of conforming to all the regs is extraordinary or just outright impractical to conform to. Compromises are reached. It happens everywhere if you look closely.
I think you are right. Last year in the UK there was a fire in the building. Flammable materials were used in the shell of the building.
I think you are right. Last year in the UK there was a fire in the building. Flammable materials were used in the shell of the building.
Why does it take such terrible tragedies (like this and the fire at Grenfell you are speaking of) before public safety is taken into consideration.......money probably! My heart goes out to the families of all that suffered in this fire.
Foreign Secretary's Lord Mayor's Easter Banquet speech at Mansion House, Wednesday 28 March:
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And I believe there are many British people who have found it immensely reassuring to learn we may be leaving the EU in exactly a year but we will never be alone, and in part that commitment to Britain reflects Britain’s reciprocal commitment to our friends, whether through the work of our peerless intelligence agencies or our armed forces or our development budgets.
And that is what I mean by Global Britain, and so I repeat the prime minister’s unconditional and immoveable commitment: that we will stand by you as you have stood by us.
We will continue to work with you – bringing as we do 20% of EU defence spending, 25% of the aid budget, 55% of the tonnage of the supply and replenishment vessels needed to keep warships at sea, 100% of the heavy lift capacity.
Why does it take such terrible tragedies (like this and the fire at Grenfell you are speaking of) before public safety is taken into consideration.......money probably! My heart goes out to the families of all that suffered in this fire.
I think that this is money and stupidity of people who do not understand responsibility.
Why does it take such terrible tragedies (like this and the fire at Grenfell you are speaking of) before public safety is taken into consideration.......money probably! My heart goes out to the families of all that suffered in this fire.
Because there will always be people who skirt the law, or construction codes/standards, to save money. And there will be officials, inspectors, etc., willing to look the other way, and allow that. Until some hideous tragedy occurs, that reveals the corruption. People will get away with whatever they're able to get away with, until they're caught. Unfortunately, lives are sacrificed in the process of their corruption being discovered.
You say that the building project was mistaken and corrupt officials signed this project. Which mistakes were made? I'm not an expert, but I'm almost sure that the project was typical for all such malls.
No, that's NOT what I was saying. ( Like you, I am no expert, so I couldn't tell right away how good was the idea to turn old factory building into shopping mall/entertainment center at the first place.) What I was questioned, initially, - HOW COULD a BUSINESS hosting THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE be exempt from check-ups on safety measures?
Only if it PRETENDED to be what it was NOT ( i.e. claiming that it was a "small business,") and ONLY with the agreement of the local officials.
That's number one, and number two - as you'll figure out from this investigative journalism - the specialists are questioning now the safety of the building overall, because it was not up to safety standards to begin with. So they are questioning here, who allowed to convert such building into entertainment/shopping center back in 2013, and why it was not shut down?
( Sorry I don't have time now to translate at least the excerpts from this article, but I'll get back to it.)
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Controller closed the door during a movie. This is not corruption.
No, this is not "corruption." Corruption is not checking on time whether the EMERGENCY EXITS are functional. Because someone is paid off to not to do it.
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Guard turned off the alarm due to false positives. This is not corruption. This is a system of people's perception of the world.
If the guard is "turning off the alarm due to false positives" - there are two things going on here. Number one - corruption yet again of the people who are not immediately replacing the faulty alarm system, and second - the dumbness of the guard ( so yet again - total irresponsibility of those in charge, that don't provide adequate safety training.)
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Officials can tighten checks. But then Navalny will again yell that the business is under pressure.
See, the officials are "tightening checks" in a very peculiar manner. First they issue the rules/regulations that are unrealistic to follow by small businesses, and then they start collecting "fines" ( read bribes) from them, for "non-compliance." All while someone like this Shtengelov miraculously turns his shopping mall into "small business," forgoes all the check ups, and departs with all his billions to sunny Australia.
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Blaming Putin is very simple.
Of course it's simple. Because all these corruption schemes flourish under his umbrella.
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But I think, that most vile in this situation is the use of tragedy for political purposes.
Yep, Putin is the first one to use this tragedy for his PR purposes. It's very visible in that video of his personal "investigation" that Scrat posted earlier in this thread.
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Changes are necessary. And punishment of those responsible.
But the whole "punishment," the whole investigation of this case shows the degree of endemic corruption, so what kind of "changes" are we talking about here?
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But this should be a quiet job, not a PR in the square.
Can you point me at ANY politician that tried to use this tragedy for his/her political gains on that central square in Kemerovo ( except for Putin himself?)
The only guy whom the local officials were trying to accuse of "PR" and politicization of this case, turned out to be that very guy who lost all his family in that fire.
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The tragedy was turned into a political show.
Yep, by Putin, as usual.
P.S. I am sorry I do not follow Navalny and what he says here or there ( I don't take him seriously.) But I DO pay attention at what the "left" forces have to say on the matters.
No, that's NOT what I was saying. ( Like you, I am no expert, so I couldn't tell right away how good was the idea to turn old factory building into shopping mall/entertainment center at the first place.) What I was questioned, initially, - HOW COULD a BUSINESS hosting THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE be exempt from check-ups on safety measures?
Only if it PRETENDED to be what it was NOT ( i.e. claiming that it was a "small business,") and ONLY with the agreement of the local officials.
That's number one, and number two - as you'll figure out from this investigative journalism - the specialists are questioning now the safety of the building overall, because it was not up to safety standards to begin with. So they are questioning here, who allowed to convert such building into entertainment/shopping center back in 2013, and why it was not shut down?
( Sorry I don't have time now to translate at least the excerpts from this article, but I'll get back to it.)
It seems that Yakovleva is a serious expert in construction. I also propose to ask an opinion of janitor Ahmed that he thinks about observance of fire safety standards.
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Originally Posted by erasure
No, this is not "corruption." Corruption is not checking on time whether the EMERGENCY EXITS are functional. Because someone is paid off to not to do it.
You can not check every day. Exits open on day of check and close the next day. This is not a problem for current politicians. This is a problem of mentality. First of all, we need to change our attitude to security.
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Originally Posted by erasure
If the guard is "turning off the alarm due to false positives" - there are two things going on here. Number one - corruption yet again of the people who are not immediately replacing the faulty alarm system,
Most likely it was a typical system. Support for the operation of this system is responsibility of owner of building. I think it's technically very difficult to control these moments.
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Originally Posted by erasure
and second - the dumbness of the guard ( so yet again - total irresponsibility of those in charge, that don't provide adequate safety training.)
Also it's technically very difficult to control these moments
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Originally Posted by erasure
See, the officials are "tightening checks" in a very peculiar manner. First they issue the rules/regulations that are unrealistic to follow by small businesses, and then they start collecting "fines" ( read bribes) from them, for "non-compliance." All while someone like this Shtengelov miraculously turns his shopping mall into "small business," forgoes all the check ups, and departs with all his billions to sunny Australia.
Such problems should be solved systematically. I do not believe that this can be solved quickly and simply. Especially at rallies. Look at Ukraine.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Of course it's simple. Because all these corruption schemes flourish under his umbrella.
These problems do not have a simple solution. In every country there is corruption.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Yep, Putin is the first one to use this tragedy for his PR purposes. It's very visible in that video of his personal "investigation" that Scrat posted earlier in this thread.
He is trying to minimize loss of reputation. This is normal. It would be worse if he stayed in Moscow.
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Originally Posted by erasure
But the whole "punishment," the whole investigation of this case shows the degree of endemic corruption, so what kind of "changes" are we talking about here?
Investigation takes several months. I think we should wait for the results.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Can you point me at ANY politician that tried to use this tragedy for his/her political gains on that central square in Kemerovo ( except for Putin himself?)
The only guy whom the local officials were trying to accuse of "PR" and politicization of this case, turned out to be that very guy who lost all his family in that fire.
Ok, not on the central square in Kemerovo. But this or this was displeasingly.
Putin's deputy governor of the Kemerovo region,Vladimir Chernov: "We are concluding that this [demonstration] was a clearly orchestrated event aimed at discrediting authorities." Then he said that many of the protesters had no idea what they were doing there and many were drunk. Another authority told Putin on TV that demonstrations are organized by opposition political forces. This is how the Russian government responds to people complaining about the corrupt system that killed their kids.
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