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The points you refer to are all very accurate, which makes me raise the questions that I posed earlier. Why do you believe that propaganda is one sided?
What makes you think that Russia is an honest player?
I really hope you answer, because I'm interested in the methodology you use to draw these conclusions.
Russia IS NOT an honest player. They do what is necessary to protect themselves and their interests. What sets them apart in contemporary history is the policy concerning those interests which is to PROTECT. The US policy (and some allies) have an additional clause somewhere in the policy concerning EXPANSION, at any price in human lives lost and destroyed.
Many Ukrainians in the Baltic states were "pro" Russian right up until 2014. All the ones I knew were, and they are an unrelated sample so I can't call them outliers. For example, my friends in Tallinn, who speak Russian first and hail from Odessa (and more of their family live in Russia than in Ukraine), were quick to point out to me the lies on Russian TV in late February of 2014 (the supposed mass exodus of Ukrainians fleeing to Russia and the persecution of Russian speakers in the south, etc). They were the ones who set off the alarms in my mind about what Russia's reaction to the revolution was going to be.
For sure though many of them who live in different countries all these years don't have a strong Ukrainian identity. It makes sense that the new Ukrainian anti-Russian identity would exist mostly in the country affect by Putin's disastrous intervention. If Russia intervened in Estonia in the same way, they would be hated more there too.
But here's the thing in all this, the coup in Moscow in 1991 was the catalyst for breaking up the USSR the way it did. I'm not surprised that this has been flipped into an anti-western conspiracy theory lately but I am surprised that people who should know better are giving into such ideas.
No it was not "the coup in Moscow in 1991" that was the "catalyst" for breaking up the USSR - THIS IS WHAT was the true catalyst behind it all;
" In October 1991, Yeltsin announced that Russia would proceed with radical, market-oriented reform along the lines of "shock therapy", as recommended by the United States and IMF.[1]"
So by the time the criminal ( from general population's point of view) Belavezha Accord has been signed, dissolving Soviet Union, Yeltsin and his team were already cooperating with American government from within, destroying the lives of millions of people.
( You need to understand that "America's hopeful," the very Gaidar who later orchestrated the "shock therapy" in Russia, was the very person who was preparing the act of official dissolution of the Soviet Union in Belovezha.)
And that's what Russians didn't forget or forgive both to the US and Yeltsin alike.
The direct result of these reforms was the creation of oligarchy and the war we are heading towards to today.
"We got a very important lesson. Karl Popper wrote the book Open Society and Its Enemies [in which] he described two main enemies of open society, which were fascism and communism. In the last 10 years, Russia found out that an open society has one more enemy. This enemy is capitalism which is not limited by laws, by civil institutions, by tradition, by belief, by the judicial system, by trade unions, by nothing -- simply the wild will for profit at any price. That was the key idea of privatization here; that was the key idea of all the changes here. That's why it put Russia into a situation of crony capitalism."
And this very capitalism, brought to life with American help, is going to fight for its interests till the last breath, taking everyone to the grave with it, if someone will decide to unseat it.
That's who Putin REALLY is, and that's what he stands for.
So instead of "being surprised by anti-American conspiracies," you need to see things for what they are, instead of listening to American media narrative.
It looks like Ukrainian identity/nationalism is a thing what has increased with years. In 1991 and overall in those years where took place the movement of secession of Baltic countries there were also pro Soviet movements in Baltics which opposed to independence movements and wanted to maintain them as republics within the Union. In Estonia such movement -the International Movement of Workers of Estonian SSR - was led eg by two ethnic Ukrainians and an ethnic Jew. What I want to say is that in past Ukrainians eg in other republics were in general always together with local Russians and shared same views and everything. And of course - the language. There were and are pretty many Ukrainians here but only a very tiny bit of them speak Ukrainian language as first language. (Overall, I believe the Ukrainian identity (and obviously anti-Russian feelings as well) of those Ukrainians who live in other former soviet republics is weaker than Ukrainian identity of Ukraine's Ukrainians.)
To begin with - "Ukrainian identity" is first of all yet again the westernmost regions thing.
THOSE ethnic Ukrainians would never be "together with local Russians" ANYWHERE. ( As I've already said, they didn't share common history with Russia/rest of Ukraine since the 11th century.)
It's just before the infliction of this "identity" was not enforced on the rest of Ukraine as it is today, under a life threat - literally so.
As for the Eastern part of Ukraine - you need to understand that such thing as "Russian identity" has been reinforced during Putin's times as well. ( Why? Because it serves economic interests of the ruling class of Russia ( or so they think.) It's THEM who pointed at Eastern Ukrainians, ( ethnic Russians and Ukrainian alike,) saying that "it's a different country."
So really, it's a two-way street, AnhitityK.
P.S. I am surprised to hear that there was a "pro-Soviet movement" in Estonia back in those days.
To begin with - "Ukrainian identity" is first of all yet again the westernmost regions thing.
THOSE ethnic Ukrainians would never be "together with local Russians" ANYWHERE. ( As I've already said, they didn't share common history with Russia/rest of Ukraine since the 11th century.)
It's just before the infliction of this "identity" was not enforced on the rest of Ukraine as it is today, under a life threat - literally so.
As for the Eastern part of Ukraine - you need to understand that such thing as "Russian identity" has been reinforced during Putin's times as well. ( Why? Because it serves economic interests of the ruling class of Russia ( or so they think.) It's THEM who pointed at Eastern Ukrainians, ( ethnic Russians and Ukrainian alike,) saying that "it's a different country."
So really, it's a two-way street, AnhitityK.
P.S. I am surprised to hear that there was a "pro-Soviet movement" in Estonia back in those days.
Uh no, you are 10-20 years behind the times. I'm guessing you are a 90s immigrant because you share a lot of their beliefs. Nobody cares about common history 100+ years ago. There is a Western Ukrainian identity of which you described accurately. But there is ALSO a Ukrainian identity in much the rest of the nation which supersedes any idea of common history or Russian identity. Yes they are the same people as Russians in their roots but today very different ideas of who they want to be. This is what its all about, as Putin wants to hide the fact that they want to be like the rest of Europe (because its better standard of living than his broken system in Russia). So he unleashes hybrid war to protect his own interests. In doing so, he hardens Ukrainians into anti Russians just like Stalin hardened eastern Europeans and Balts against Russians. Its a good thing for the world long term, but a sad reality that Russia needs to be put in its smaller place in the world.
Sure there was a pro Soviet movement in every republic back then just as there is a pro Russian one now in Ukraine. There will always be a group of people with their own interests contrary to the majority. Actually the Pro Russians in Ukraine are mostly disillusioned losers at life and pensioners wishing they would recreate the Soviet Union.
To begin with - "Ukrainian identity" is first of all yet again the westernmost regions thing.
THOSE ethnic Ukrainians would never be "together with local Russians" ANYWHERE. ( As I've already said, they didn't share common history with Russia/rest of Ukraine since the 11th century.)
It's just before the infliction of this "identity" was not enforced on the rest of Ukraine as it is today, under a life threat - literally so.
As for the Eastern part of Ukraine - you need to understand that such thing as "Russian identity" has been reinforced during Putin's times as well. ( Why? Because it serves economic interests of the ruling class of Russia ( or so they think.) It's THEM who pointed at Eastern Ukrainians, ( ethnic Russians and Ukrainian alike,) saying that "it's a different country."
So really, it's a two-way street,
Well Ukrainians are an intersting ethnic group in that respect because of having such big gap/difference between eastern and west side of the country
Just look at this, one ethnicity with two languages (and maybe even more):
heh, my username... that does not mean anything. Just once a password generator generated me a password what was 'anhityk' with combination of numbers and letters before or after it. If to spell it with accent on the last syllable it will sound like something in Tataric or Turkic languages () might sound I suppose.
Quote:
P.S. I am surprised to hear that there was a "pro-Soviet movement" in Estonia back in those days.
Well it was but the supporters of that movement was local Russian community (or let's be precise: Russophone community - i mean as well Ukrainians, other people with origin of other SU republics living here).
This is about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermovement
Analogical movements and with analogical supporters were in other Baltic countries back then.
To begin with - "Ukrainian identity" is first of all yet again the westernmost regions thing.
THOSE ethnic Ukrainians would never be "together with local Russians" ANYWHERE. ( As I've already said, they didn't share common history with Russia/rest of Ukraine since the 11th century.)
Ukrainian history has always been closely connected with Russia.
Only from middle of the 14th to middle of the 17th century Ukraine entered orbit of the Lithuanian-Polish states. But it was not isolation from Rus.
Ukrainian history has always been closely connected with Russia.
Only from middle of the 14th to middle of the 17th century Ukraine entered orbit of the Lithuanian-Polish states. But it was not isolation from Rus.
Yep. They are the same people. But that's because you are talking about majority Ukrainians as I have. He's talking only about the Western/Galacian ones, who are historically maybe less part of Russia's history. In other words, you two aren't agreeing on who Ukrainians actually were/are.
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What I want to say is that in past Ukrainians eg in other republics were in general always together with local Russians and shared same views and everything. And of course - the language. There were and are pretty many Ukrainians here but only a very tiny bit of them speak Ukrainian language as first language. (Overall, I believe the Ukrainian identity (and obviously anti-Russian feelings as well) of those Ukrainians who live in other former soviet republics is weaker than Ukrainian identity of Ukraine's Ukrainians.)
) might sound I suppose.
