Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
can’t the same be said for Russia, anything before the Tsardom of Russia’s foundation in 1547, was not “Russian history” yet, and that it was just an offshoot of the Kieven Rus? Granted 1547 is still considerably older than 1776. It just seems a bit ironic when Russians put down the US for it’s lack of history, when most Russians are living in cities that are not much older, particularly their “cultural capital” St. Petersburg. Which btw Benjamin Franklin was only born 3 years after its foundation.
Huh?
Of course Russian history starts with Kiev/Novgorod, not some "Tsardom of Russia," lol.
To say anything otherwise, is "going against the historic truth" ( Putin was actually right when he said that.)
P.S. "Cultural capital" St. Petersburg?
Yeah right.
St. Petersburg is just a newer layer and currently not more than a city-museum.
The true "cultural" ( and political) capital of modern Russia was ( and still is) Moscow of course ( first mentioned in Russian history back in 1147, i.e. when it was still part of Kievan Rus.)
Huh?
Of course Russian history starts with Kiev/Novgorod, not some "Tsardom of Russia," lol.
To say anything otherwise, is "going against the historic truth" ( Putin was actually right when he said that.)
P.S. "Cultural capital" St. Petersburg? Yeah right.
St. Petersburg is just a newer layer and currently not more than a city-museum.
The true "cultural" ( and political) capital of modern Russia was ( and still is) Moscow of course ( first mentioned in Russian history back in 1147, i.e. when it was still part of Kievan Rus.)
All I’m saying is fair is fair, if the colonial history of the US is not “American history” yet, then the same should apply to Russia. And sure maybe it shouldn’t start with Tarsdom of Russia, but perhaps when Moscow gained its independence from the Golden Horde in 1480?
And yes I often hear St. Petersburg either being called the second capital, or the cultural capital, in either case the city is viewed as being historical, when in reality the city is not that old, it just did a very good job at preserving the history that it did have, whereas American cities tore down their history and built skyscrapers over them.
Also another note, if it wasn’t for the power that Moscow was able to gain from the Mongols, Novgorod would be it’s own independent republic, just saying. And if Kiev should be considered part of Russian history, then St. John’s on Newfoundland should be part of American history as it was founded by British colonists/fishermen in 1497.
All I’m saying is fair is fair, if the colonial history of the US is not “American history” yet, then the same should apply to Russia. And sure maybe it shouldn’t start with Tarsdom of Russia, but perhaps when Moscow gained its independence from the Golden Horde in 1480?
I beg you, but do not talk about the Golden Horde and the Tatar-Mongol invasion. It is already clear to many that this is a fake. Then according to your logic, the history of China should be considered since 1945, when they were freed from the yoke of Japan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94
And if Kiev should be considered part of Russian history, then St. John’s on Newfoundland should be part of American history as it was founded by British colonists/fishermen in 1497.
This is undoubtedly true, whatever they say. During the development of the Slavs ' statehood, Kievan Rus was first formed, then the center of power gradually moved to the Principality of Moscow and these were links of one chain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94
And if Kiev should be considered part of Russian history, then St. John’s on Newfoundland should be part of American history as it was founded by British colonists/fishermen in 1497.
In my opinion, American history as the history of an independent state the USA should be considered from the day of signing the Declaration of Independence.
I beg you, but do not talk about the Golden Horde and the Tatar-Mongol invasion. It is already clear to many that this is a fake. Then according to your logic, the history of China should be considered since 1945, when they were freed from the yoke of Japan?
This is undoubtedly true, whatever they say. During the development of the Slavs ' statehood, Kievan Rus was first formed, then the center of power gradually moved to the Principality of Moscow and these were links of one chain.
In my opinion, American history as the history of an independent state the USA should be considered from the day of signing the Declaration of Independence.
How is that any different from saying; In my opinion, Russian history as the history of an independent state should be considered from the day Ivan IV assumed the title of “Tsar and Grand Duke of all Rus'”.
Don't get me wrong, I still view Russian history as Veliky Novgorod => Kiev => Vladimir => Moscow => St. Petersburg => Moscow.
What I don't get is why you and Erasure don't view the colonial history as part of American history, if it's not American, then what is it, English? by that extension, does Canadian history only begin in 1982 when it gained full sovereignty, and even then it's under the crown of the British Monarch.
In American schools, US history begins with either the failed colony of Roanoke in 1585, or the first successful colony of Jamestown in 1607.
I don't see why the various independent Rus principalities being any different to the historical makeup of modern Russia, then the various English colonies are to the historical makeup of the US?
And as a side note the only people who don't believe in the Mongol invasion of Russia, are Russian nationalists/fascists who can't stomach the thought that somebody of a "lower" "class/race" could possibly have conquered the "mighty" Rus, who were by the way at their lowest point squabbling over power, (and the same people who deny the Nordic origins of the Ruriks) . Yes the Mongols didn't rule over the Rus in the same way they did China, but Muscovy was most definitely their vassal state, something akin to what the soviets would later due to central Europe. Mongols were known for their hands off approach, all they cared about was their tribute, so I guess they were more of a mafia state, than any actual "state" in the modern sense.
How is that any different from saying; In my opinion, Russian history as the history of an independent state should be considered from the day Ivan IV assumed the title of “Tsar and Grand Duke of all Rus'”.
Don't get me wrong, I still view Russian history as Veliky Novgorod => Kiev => Vladimir => Moscow => St. Petersburg => Moscow.
What I don't get is why you and Erasure don't view the colonial history as part of American history, if it's not American, then what is it, English? by that extension, does Canadian history only begin in 1982 when it gained full sovereignty, and even then it's under the crown of the British Monarch.
In American schools, US history begins with either the failed colony of Roanoke in 1585, or the first successful colony of Jamestown in 1607.
I don't see why the various independent Rus principalities being any different to the historical makeup of modern Russia, then the various English colonies are to the historical makeup of the US?
And as a side note the only people who don't believe in the Mongol invasion of Russia, are Russian nationalists/fascists who can't stomach the thought that somebody of a "lower" "class/race" could possibly have conquered the "mighty" Rus, who were by the way at their lowest point squabbling over power, (and the same people who deny the Nordic origins of the Ruriks) . Yes the Mongols didn't rule over the Rus in the same way they did China, but Muscovy was most definitely their vassal state, something akin to what the soviets would later due to central Europe. Mongols were known for their hands off approach, all they cared about was their tribute, so I guess they were more of a mafia state, than any actual "state" in the modern sense.
I think that to speak about history any nation can be with moment mentioning about this nation in any historical documents, Chronicles and etc. If borrow Rus, then the first mention of were roughly in 9-10 centuries, if borrow France, then, too, about 8-10 century, about of England(not Britain, she even before) roughly with 6 century. As for North America, at first there were still British and French colonies on its territory. And it was first the story of the colonization of the new continent, which was part of the "British and French colonial" history. So, maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that the history of the United States as a state and nation begins with the Declaration of independence. After all, until that moment, the inhabitants were called British, French colonists, but after the signing of the Declaration, these colonies officially began to be called the United States of America, and their population Americans. So did Canada, which gained de facto independence in the 1800s.
Now as for the Tatar-Mongol yoke. I'm not a nationalist, I'm just used to letting things go through my head. This theme is worthy of a separate topic with "holywar" on over1000+ pages, so I will state briefly.
1. Until now, historians can not determine and accurately show the place where the capital of the Golden Horde was. All speculation at the level of "somewhere in the area of this spot size 1000x1000 km."
2. The presence of the state and statehood implies the presence of writing and maintenance of state archives (various decrees, reports on the collection of tribute etc.). There are no such documents.
Also the availability of money. Where is the money of the Golden Horde?
3.In various sources mentioned the size of the Mongolian army in 200 and the and in 400 thousands of people. And each warrior had to have 2 spare horses. Total on a modest calculation is 600 thousand horses.For the sake of interest, try to overtake at least 10,000 horses at a distance of at least 1000 km and provide them with water and provisions. And you will understand the absurdity of these figures. And still need to find livelihood for 200 thousand warriors. Also where they gathered so much iron to make weapons and chain mail. On the territory of modern Mongolia is not found any significant places of those times where they were engaged in metallurgy on such a scale.
4. The term "Tatar yoke" or "Mongol yoke"is not mentioned anywhere in the historical Chronicles. The term "Tatar-Mongol yoke" was introduced only in the 19th century.
5. Miniature from the chronicle of the battle of Kulikovo. And where are the Tartars? Right or left?
I think that to speak about history any nation can be with moment mentioning about this nation in any historical documents, Chronicles and etc. If borrow Rus, then the first mention of were roughly in 9-10 centuries, if borrow France, then, too, about 8-10 century, about of England(not Britain, she even before) roughly with 6 century. As for North America, at first there were still British and French colonies on its territory. And it was first the story of the colonization of the new continent, which was part of the "British and French colonial" history. So, maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that the history of the United States as a state and nation begins with the Declaration of independence. After all, until that moment, the inhabitants were called British, French colonists, but after the signing of the Declaration, these colonies officially began to be called the United States of America, and their population Americans. So did Canada, which gained de facto independence in the 1800s.
Now as for the Tatar-Mongol yoke. I'm not a nationalist, I'm just used to letting things go through my head. This theme is worthy of a separate topic with "holywar" on over1000+ pages, so I will state briefly.
1. Until now, historians can not determine and accurately show the place where the capital of the Golden Horde was. All speculation at the level of "somewhere in the area of this spot size 1000x1000 km."
2. The presence of the state and statehood implies the presence of writing and maintenance of state archives (various decrees, reports on the collection of tribute etc.). There are no such documents.
Also the availability of money. Where is the money of the Golden Horde?
3.In various sources mentioned the size of the Mongolian army in 200 and the and in 400 thousands of people. And each warrior had to have 2 spare horses. Total on a modest calculation is 600 thousand horses.For the sake of interest, try to overtake at least 10,000 horses at a distance of at least 1000 km and provide them with water and provisions. And you will understand the absurdity of these figures. And still need to find livelihood for 200 thousand warriors. Also where they gathered so much iron to make weapons and chain mail. On the territory of modern Mongolia is not found any significant places of those times where they were engaged in metallurgy on such a scale.
4. The term "Tatar yoke" or "Mongol yoke"is not mentioned anywhere in the historical Chronicles. The term "Tatar-Mongol yoke" was introduced only in the 19th century.
5. Miniature from the chronicle of the battle of Kulikovo. And where are the Tartars? Right or left?
Not necessarily. The Inca Empire didn't have a writing system.
"Where is the Golden Horde's money?" Are you not aware that Ch. Khan "invented" paper money and used it extensively? It was the only practical solution to moving large sums of money around a huge empire, or even regionally, for that matter.
I think a lot of people don't realize just how young the majority of Russia is, quite comparable to the age of American cities.
15 largest cities of Russia
Kazan: 1005
Moscow: 1147
Nizhny Novgorod: 1221
Ufa: 1574
Voronezh: 1585
Samara: 1586
Volgograd: 1589
Krasnoyarsk: 1628
St. Petersburg: 1703
Yekaterinburg: 1723
Perm: 1723
Chelyabinsk: 1736
Rostov-on-Don: 1749
Omsk: 1782 Novosibirsk: 1893
Median: 1628
15 largest cities of the US
New York: 1624
Boston: 1630
Philadelphia: 1682
Detroit: 1701
San Francisco: 1776
Chicago: 1780
Los Angeles: 1781
Washington: 1790
Miami: 1825
Atlanta: 1837
Houston: 1837
Dallas: 1841
Seattle: 1851
Phoenix: 1867 Orlando: 1875
Median: 1790
So although Russia has some ancient medieval cities, the typical major Russian city is only 162 years younger than the typical major American city, and even then Russia only has 3 major cities built prior to the discovery of the new world, and only half of them were built prior to New York City's foundation.
That is correct, the evolution of civilization over the last few 1000 years has been slow until only recently in history as your post illustrates. The civilization we have today is a result of technology, preservation/retention of information with writing and our understanding of science and the world around us.
All the above alowed humanity to not only expand the places we could live but allowed more of us to live and to live longer. This doesn't mean that the only thing that ever mattered in human history happened in Egypt and the Mediteranean. Horsemanship was not a Roman invention, nor was the Chariot an invention of Greece. There was A LOT going on in other places.
I went to the Gomel Museum a long time ago and it was interesting to note that the Sozh river had thriving communities in places going back as far as 7000 years. Gomel was only mentioned in writing around 1150, there was a fishing village there for 1000s of years before that though. Pottery and tools left behind tell of Neolithic trading empires in the area. The common culture of the people in that area seems to point to a riverine civilization throughout all that part of Europe.
As a foreigner I see things that natives don't. I see things in the writings of Erasure that tell me she is a product of that eastern European culture that in many forms goes back to prehistory. I see it in Zimogors posts and others. It's something unique and the legacy seems to be enduring.
i think that legacies form and mold civilizations and the people in them, the customs, rituals, beliefs may change outwardly but the framework changes little if at all. I also think that that framework gives people an example to follow, a sense of purpose.
I think that's why Russians are so good at some things too where others have their own legacies and strenghts.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It is already clear to many that this is a fake. Then according to your logic, the history of China should be considered since 1945, when they were freed from the yoke of Japan?
