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This Boston/NY deserve a better reputation than Philly/Chicago because the cities aren’t the same.
NY and Boston enjoy a very high reputation on the crime/safety front and yes, on a factual basis it's merited. No one is contesting that point.
And I completely understand your point regarding the high-traffic tourist areas and some folks supposedly gaining a skewed perspective of the city. I wasn't "reflexively defending Philly" on that point, because you're still arguing that only the high-traffic tourist areas of Philly or Chicago are the only livable/safe areas. That's just plain false.
Philadelphia and Chicago are both large enough to host a whole spectrum of neighborhoods. To your point, it's absolutely true that you'll find a lower "floor" for dangerous/destitute neighborhoods in these cities. No one has argued to the contrary. But there's lot of Philly in between the Rittenhouse-levels and Fairhill-levels of the city. And it's that in-between area where the city could be underrated by some.
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Originally Posted by btownboss4
I’d go as far to say places like Chelsea that are trashed in Greater Boston discourse would be held in at least decent esteem in greater Philly.
I think Philadelphians would place Chelsea in the same vein as an Upper Darby; heavily blue-collar and relatively poor, but still pretty safe compared to the "worst" neighborhoods of the city.
But again, poor neighborhoods are poor neighborhoods, regardless of their crime levels.
Baltimore may be the one exception because Downtown Baltimore stinks. It does not hide its blemishes at all so I think it may be a bit underrated. Because statistically it’s pretty similar to Philly but doesn’t have bear the reputation of Philly
Baltimore has a worse reputation/stigma than Philly does.
This Boston v Philly argument Beckons me to when I shared a screenshot of Woodrow Avenue in Mattapan and one of Kensington and then Duderino said….
“what’s the difference?” LMAO.
I think that was the most out of pocket post I’ve ever seen from Duderink, who by and large is a really good poster and really logical poster but I'm cmon
comparing any bad neighborhood in Boston in 2023 for a bad neighborhood in Philadelphia it’s not even comparable it’s like two different orbits entirely in terms of just comfortability wll lemme stop in terms of anything really.
and Ashby the place where eight people were shot in the place where six people were shot (not five but six) are literally across the park from one another like the eight person shooting is on Talbot Avenue the five person shooting is directly across Franklin fiel— * directly* across we’re talking 200 yards so it’s just this one very concentrated pocket you’re referring to. Yes it’s pretty shabby one of the rougher parts of Boston but it’s not *that* bad especially not compared to what you can see in just some other New England cities.a visually.
Back in the day, when my older brother was in the upper Roxbury North Dorchester, Little League that’s where all of our games were, but the kids were rough enough and belligerent enough that my father pulled my brother out of the league and re-enrolled him in the Parkway league of predominantly Irish West Roxbura. and re-enrolled him in the Parkway league of predominantly Irish West Roxbury, and a few years later it folded I also went through a house party there on nightingale street that they got raided by the police and it’s just a overall kind of rough area but I never feel the way I feel and some parts of north or west Philly.
Many parts of Philly and Baltimore feel like they've been left in 1970. They come off as totally forgotten, smelly, unsanitary, and 3rd world. It can be outright SCARY at night in many pockets around both of these cities. It is an element that is totally absent in Boston in 2023. No its not the majority of neighbrorhoods or what have you but the lows there are so low that the quality of an average neighborhood in Philly would be looked down upon by Bostonians. its funny my father (Trenton NJ native) always says when he got to Boston in 1977 Philly and Boston were one and the same in terms of how bad they were. He always says he's disappointed in the route Philly took- but he hasnt really been since 2010.
A few opinions from our travels to scout relocation options:
Bend, OR is overrated. Feels like a ton of people had a great vacation experience and then decided to move there to live the dream. Which is fine, except they want it to remain exactly the way it was when they first visited. So the city really feels like it's outgrown its footprint, and there's no political will to adapt. Downtown is too small for the population. Very expensive housing relative to what the city offers. Too many scary rural roads with way too much traffic moving way too fast. I found the overall vibe pretentious, with a lot of emphasis on showing off one's outdoorsyness, and this is coming from someone who really loves the outdoors. Speaking of the outdoors, overall pretty great, so in this area I think it's rated appropriately. But the mountains and the scenery aren't really my favorite -- I strongly prefer bigger craggy mountains above treeline, which is fairly minimal in Oregon's Cascade Range, but that's just me.
Similar to Bend in many ways, for us Santa Cruz, CA (where we moved from) is also overrated. Beautiful natural scenery, and great access to the outdoors, but the city itself leaves a lot to be desired. Lacking downtown, though I expect this will improve in the years ahead as higher density housing is getting built. The food scene is mostly overpriced and mediocre. Incredibly high housing prices. Big city traffic, prices, crowds, crime but without the bigger city benefits. Again, feels like it outgrew its footprint and failed to adapt.
Eugene, OR is underrated. Beautiful setting. Great access to the outdoors, one hour to the beach or skiing, plus close access to rivers, lakes, and forest. Bigger interesting walkable downtown. Good food scene for the money. Some nice redevelopment such as 5th St Public Market. Reasonable cost of living. Some issues with blight and homelessness, though within reason for us. Climate a bit too dreary for us.
Wenatchee, WA is underrated. Essentially Washington's version of Bend that hasn't really been discovered yet. Mild climate, lots of sun. Incredible access to the outdoors (the North Cascades are more to my liking). Smallish downtown, but fine for the size of the city. Reasonable housing costs. Great little city, though not quite large enough for what we were looking for. For those looking for an even smaller city with better views, neighboring Cashmere is worth a look.
This Boston v Philly argument Beckons me to when I shared a screenshot of Woodrow Avenue in Mattapan and one of Kensington and then Duderino said….
“what’s the difference?” LMAO.
I think that was the most out of pocket post I’ve ever seen from Duderink, who by and large is a really good poster and really logical poster but I'm cmon
comparing any bad neighborhood in Boston in 2023 for a bad neighborhood in Philadelphia it’s not even comparable it’s like two different orbits entirely in terms of just comfortability wll lemme stop in terms of anything really.
and Ashby the place where eight people were shot in the place where six people were shot (not five but six) are literally across the park from one another like the eight person shooting is on Talbot Avenue the five person shooting is directly across Franklin fiel— * directly* across we’re talking 200 yards so it’s just this one very concentrated pocket you’re referring to. Yes it’s pretty shabby one of the rougher parts of Boston but it’s not *that* bad especially not compared to what you can see in just some other New England cities.a visually.
Back in the day, when my older brother was in the upper Roxbury North Dorchester, Little League that’s where all of our games were, but the kids were rough enough and belligerent enough that my father pulled my brother out of the league and re-enrolled him in the Parkway league of predominantly Irish West Roxbura. and re-enrolled him in the Parkway league of predominantly Irish West Roxbury, and a few years later it folded I also went through a house party there on nightingale street that they got raided by the police and it’s just a overall kind of rough area but I never feel the way I feel and some parts of north or west Philly.
Many parts of Philly and Baltimore feel like they've been left in 1970. They come off as totally forgotten, smelly, unsanitary, and 3rd world. It can be outright SCARY at night in many pockets around both of these cities. It is an element that is totally absent in Boston in 2023. No its not the majority of neighbrorhoods or what have you but the lows there are so low that the quality of an average neighborhood in Philly would be looked down upon by Bostonians. its funny my father (Trenton NJ native) always says when he got to Boston in 1977 Philly and Boston were one and the same in terms of how bad they were. He always says he's disappointed in the route Philly took- but he hasnt really been since 2010.
Nobody denies the poor state of many city areas. I chose a street view to show disinvested blocks can still be urban.
I also find it ironic that you are arguing that Center Ciry does not represent the city as a whole. A few months ago, on the crime forum, you claimed that Philly's reputation as a dangerous city was due to visitors driving through neglected and blighted areas. Either CC is not a fair representation or it is.
This Boston v Philly argument Beckons me to when I shared a screenshot of Woodrow Avenue in Mattapan and one of Kensington and then Duderino said….
“what’s the difference?” LMAO.
I remember that as well, and I think it may have had to do with the specific streetview you chose.
No debate from me that sections of Kensington are very challenged, clearly surpassing anything in Mattapan. But many don't realize that full scale of the neighborhood. Even though there are parts that are socially troubled, it generally has solid bones and seeing gentrification in southern end of the neighborhood with $800K+ homes:
Even in the most dysfunctional areas (Kensington & Allegheny is around the "ground zero") you're seeing noticeable improvement in street conditions from 5 years ago, but you'd never get that sense from social media. Still far from an urban utopia, but much more stabilized:
At the end of the day, at the street level, I think most perceptions come down to tight urban intensity of Philly's rowhomes. That will always come off as "heavier," and perhaps less pleasant to people for which that vernacular is foreign (the lack of a tree canopy in many areas certainly doesn't help) to people from cities like Boston, which feels much "lighter" and downright bucolic in its outer neighborhoods. It's just a very different feel and urban form, but to each their own.
Baltimore has a worse reputation/stigma than Philly does.
Yes that’s because the central areas are really crappy. Even the most rundown cities like Detroit do a much better job of keeping the central areas clean, orderly and enjoyable.
Downtown Baltimore stinks. As as a result people I think are much harsher in it than cities like Cleveland, St Louis, and such that are more or less the same as Baltimore outside of maybe a 6x5 block area in the center of town. But very few people come back from a visit raving about Baltimore because it’s problem areas are much less “out of sight out of mind” compared to your average city.
Yes that’s because the central areas are really crappy. Even the most rundown cities like Detroit do a much better job of keeping the central areas clean, orderly and enjoyable.
Downtown Baltimore stinks. As as a result people I think are much harsher in it than cities like Cleveland, St Louis, and such that are more or less the same as Baltimore outside of maybe a 6x5 block area in the center of town. But very few people come back from a visit raving about Baltimore because it’s problem areas are much less “out of sight out of mind” compared to your average city.
That’s an interesting take considering central Baltimore is in an objectively better state than central Cleveland, St. Louis or Detroit by a significant margin to add.
The only difference is Baltimore didn’t nuke its old housing stock into concrete grass prairies a as a result still retains the vast majority of its historic built form which is where the whole “scars on display” comes from. The problem that arose from that is a lot of people still live in those disinvested areas and the city got the associated crime that follows that.
Baltimore gets the harsh treating because it sits in a culturally and economically significant region of the country and is (for the same reason as Philly) held to higher standard than their rust belt counterparts.
100% true. Philly and Baltimore are constantly juxtaposed against two regions that have endless spigots 1%-er wealth (NYC and DC) that effortlessly accumulates in those regions, as well.
That’s an interesting take considering central Baltimore is in an objectively better state than central Cleveland, St. Louis or Detroit by a significant margin to add.
The only difference is Baltimore didn’t nuke its old housing stock into concrete grass prairies a as a result still retains the vast majority of its historic built form which is where the whole “scars on display” comes from. The problem that arose from that is a lot of people still live in those disinvested areas and the city got the associated crime that follows that.
Yes, physically more intact but it’s far less nice. The area around Lexington Market for example is far far more sketchy than the area around West Side Market. The Flats is much nicer than the area around the port Discovery despite the fact Cleveland is more pockmarked by parking lots. You go 1 block off the inner harbor and everything is boarded up on a Sat afternoon it’s nothing like any other major American city
The area around Penn Station blows away any mid sized Midwestern neighborhoods but if you’re in town for an O’s game that’s quite a ways a way. If you’re in town for a Gaurdians/Cards game the immediate areas are much much nicer.
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