Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
UBI is pure and simple Communism, that's what's wrong with it. If you didn't pay any attention in school pay attention NOW--- Democrats have morphed into the communist party and if you THINK implementing their ideology will somehow be better for Americans, then you need look no farther than Venezuela, where a decade ago it became a "socialist" country. It's been ALL DOWNHILL there ever since.
But... but... socialism is not 'communism' you say? Bewlscieght! Try this on for size: The Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics was full-on founded on the Communist Manifesto from Day One. That's now Russia, a quasi-socialist/fascist dictatorship where The State conveniently disposes of any political opposition, permanently. Now, how's that socialist/fascist/communist ideology looking to you now, little communist troll?
Political and economic reality is more complex than your boring cliches. Rounded off well, with a nice little insult.
Political and economic reality is more complex than your boring cliches. Rounded off well, with a nice little insult.
Yes, this is bad, but the worse insult is the one to our collective (swidt?) intelligence in, for the 10²⁴ time, conflating Venezuela and/or Cuba with 'Socialism'. Most reasonable people think Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland even, as enviable models of 'Socialism' before they think of totalitarian hellholes like the aforementioned two. There should be a way to impose fines on posters that continue the practice of dumbing down a discussion with utterances like 'Venezuela = Socialism, therefore Socialism= bad'. Indeed, the reality is more nuanced.
Bernie is out of the running. I have never heard of anyone suggesting $2K/mo. UBI. A 90% tax rate is not unheard of. It was higher once ago and moreover there was no cap! So, your pot stirring is duly noted. If I was running things, a progressive taxation scheme would indeed be crafted and the cap would be $10M and the top rate would be closer to 100% than 90% so be very happy that neither me, nor Bernie, has a Snowflakes chance in Hell of becoming POTUS.
Bernie is still a senator and his ideas are not out of the running with his supporters. 90% tax rates never generate the revenues intended because the billionaires take their balls and go to other playgrounds.
Bernie has a two step plan.
1. Implement UBI and give everyone $2000 per month.
2. Tax all forms of private income at 90%.
Of course there would be no income to tax, so there would be no money for UBI. Every scheme to magically relieve human beings of natural survival behavior is doomed to fail. You have to trade time and talent for money, and that's just the way it is, and the way it should be. Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence.
UBI wouldn't be desirable even if the money DID materialize out of thin air. It brings everyone down to same low level. The natural state of humanity is highly productive achievers pulling along the unimpressive masses. Who should be thanking them for improving the world. But instead they are endlessly and exceedingly envious and want to steal what they cannot earn.
Yes, this is bad, but the worse insult is the one to our collective (swidt?) intelligence in, for the 10²⁴ time, conflating Venezuela and/or Cuba with 'Socialism'. Most reasonable people think Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland even, as enviable models of 'Socialism' before they think of totalitarian hellholes like the aforementioned two. There should be a way to impose fines on posters that continue the practice of dumbing down a discussion with utterances like 'Venezuela = Socialism, therefore Socialism= bad'. Indeed, the reality is more nuanced.
And Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland also suck and we should want to be nothing like them. They sanction socialized theft and tax the crap out of their citizens. Capitalism is the engine of the world, and socialism is a bad exhaust system that is hanging off the bottom of the car scraping the road and is always about to fall off.
Can you please leave MY country if you want to make it like a Denmark or a France? There are plenty of options. Just leave if it's so wonderful "over there in Europe", which is, in reality, a gray miasma of depression, conformity, unhappiness, social unrest, and tax after tax after tax, and regulation after regulation after regulation. Totalitarianism and tyranny take many forms. Some quiet. Some loud. But all kill their citizens and strip them of freedom, private property rights, and self-determination.
UBI is a scam until there's USS - Universal Shelf Stocking - where invisible pink unicorns fart rainbow clouds of goods and services for all that "free money" to buy.
Why?
Because when there is "free money" why bother to work for money? Or work harder for more money?
Once the society subsidizes doing nothing, nothing will get done.
Of course there would be no income to tax, so there would be no money for UBI. Every scheme to magically relieve human beings of natural survival behavior is doomed to fail. You have to trade time and talent for money, and that's just the way it is, and the way it should be. Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence.
Oh, come on. If we taxed pure income alone (billionaires, not you) >100%, then there will still be income as a function of percentage. It's not magic, it's mathematics.
"Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence", the powerful will win. "Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence", slaves will be made subservient via power, and will work in fear of punishment.
"Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence", prey will be chewed apart, mouthful at a time, before they die.
"Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence", weak women will be raped.
"Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence", a UBI may be voted in, and by force, you may be compulsed to observe it or die.
And it could go on. I'm willing to accept that you don't fully mean that statement axiomatically, nor do you mean to invoke the naturalistic fallacy that it implies.
I guess what I mean to say ultimately is that, when the means of production and wealth creation are effectively taken from the majority, it should be given back to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
And Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland also suck and we should want to be nothing like them. They sanction socialized theft and tax the crap out of their citizens. Capitalism is the engine of the world, and socialism is a bad exhaust system that is hanging off the bottom of the car scraping the road and is always about to fall off.
Look, I'm sure the data is corrupted in some way, as all data virtually is. To take it with a grain of Baltic Sea salt.
Debt AKA modern capitalism is the engine of the world, yes. But labor and natural resources are the fuel. Technology can be considered both, I suppose. This model works, and continues to work insofar, until either natural resources or aggregate demand fails to continue rolling the ball.
I feel like you're not getting the bigger picture. If the sun stops producing light, are you going to "update your skillset to produce value" by emanating light from your core?
You have to trade time and talent for money, and that's just the way it is, and the way it should be. Based on reality, our nature, and the nature of existence.
Half right - half wrong.
Money is a medium of exchange to facilitate trade when barter is insufficient. But the premise that money, itself, has value independent of the marketplace is where MADNESS DOTH LIE.
Proof : if money solved poverty, give everyone 22 billion billion units of currency. Now, everyone is fabulously - and equally wealthy. Put one of those folks on a deserted island, and see what his money can buy. Or who will fill the shelves when no one needs more money thus does not work, sweat, fabricate, transport, nor sell goods and services. Even the starving children are fabulously wealthy.
In reality, prosperity is not based on the sum and value or distribution of money tokens.
Prosperity is based on prodigious production of surplus usable goods and services, equitably traded and enjoyed.
Confiscating surplus "for the poor" only discourages making a surplus. Why work harder when it will be taken from you?
Thus money madness and socialism (compulsory charity) are used to rob the producers for the benefit of the consumers who do nothing of value.
Sanity will reign once people stop trying to "get rich by hitting the Lotto" (or robbing producers via socialism), and seek to do more with less so more can enjoy... you know, be productive, creative, and prolific.
<yawn> Socialism (compulsory charity) has been the bedrock of all First World economies for decades and it hasn't stopped people from becoming immensley wealthy. If we are going to continue criminalizing contraception and sex education then we should at least be prepared to euthanize the collateral damage of a society that values only those that add value.
I don't listen to anyone who tries to argue that a First World Nuclear Superpower can continue in the manner to which if all taxes are abolished and the Federal Government reduced to Defense only. Defend what? What would there be to defend if all you had were a bunch of rich people dying slowly as civilization grinds to a halt around them? Enemies would just have to wait till the last billionaire fled to Luxembourg and then move into the empty properties left fallow.
Chances are good they would administrate better and taxes would soon (again) be the law of the land. Probably not a UBI but you don't really have any need for a UBI when the population is only several hundred thousand and there is more work to go around than there are people to fill vacancies.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Makers v. Takers
