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I also sincerely hope that this country won't slink down to the depths of an actual civil war or even protracted chaos of the sort we're witnessing now .
IMHO I think the main issue is that so many have replaced the concept of live and let live with that of my way or the highway .
I could ramble on for a bit more , but if people were to just learn to live and simply let it be ( as Papa Halford once sang ) then the world would be a much better place .
There's a silent, non-violent civil war going, it's been going on for some time now, with polarization. It's also happening in other countries in the world, notably Poland.
An imaginary wall has been created, you stay on your side of the wall, I'll stay on mine.
I've lost a number of relatives and long-standing friends over the last 3-4 years and let them stay on their side of the wall, I want nothing to do with them. In fact, ever again!
Even in my 55+ community, there's a notable division. I told one of my neighbors of whom her other neighbor supported and? I'll never talk to her again! Up goes the wall.
Another poster suggest the possibility of secessions and I think that's the best idea out there today. CA is the same size as Germany, which stands alone, and TX is much bigger than France, so why are we keeping 50 states together when it not necessary.
If you're talking about a physical civil war, this would prevent that. The Blue West Coast states I all but view as foreign countries, and I'm sure others feel the same way, so let's them unite and call the country Pacifica.
Randy Weaver's only crime was possession of a shotgun 1/2" too short. His wife and son were executed by federal marshals who were there to serve a "failure to appear" arrest warrant. Weaver's son and a federal agent got into a shootout, resulting in both their deaths, so fault was impossible to determine. Weaver's wife was subsequently executed by an FBI sniper. Randy Weaver was acquitted on all charges except the original shotgun charge. He subsequently won a $3.1 million wrongful death judgment against the feds.
Randy Weaver is 100% in agreement with the Black Lives Matter movement. Cops should not be allowed to execute people.
I tossed Weaver's name in there simply for the fact that he was of like mind with other nut cases.. Weaver was most likely the victim of a government sting--But he also had a big mouth coupled with an apocalyptic notion of Christian persecution. He hung around the Aryan Nations compound, although never joining Butler's morons, he definitely had a lot in common with those armed and dangerous types who were coming to Idaho with their notions of white separatism. It was just a matter of time and being in the right place, and Randy accommodated the government on both counts by offering to alter a weapon illegally.
There's a silent, non-violent civil war going, it's been going on for some time now, with polarization. It's also happening in other countries in the world, notably Poland.
An imaginary wall has been created, you stay on your side of the wall, I'll stay on mine.
I've lost a number of relatives and long-standing friends over the last 3-4 years and let them stay on their side of the wall, I want nothing to do with them. In fact, ever again!
Even in my 55+ community, there's a notable division. I told one of my neighbors of whom her other neighbor supported and? I'll never talk to her again! Up goes the wall.
Another poster suggest the possibility of secessions and I think that's the best idea out there today. CA is the same size as Germany, which stands alone, and TX is much bigger than France, so why are we keeping 50 states together when it not necessary.
If you're talking about a physical civil war, this would prevent that. The Blue West Coast states I all but view as foreign countries, and I'm sure others feel the same way, so let's them unite and call the country Pacifica.
Interesting points, but just a minor correction: CA 163,000 sq miles, 40m people; Germany 137,000 sq miles, 80m people.
Regarding the nation of Pacifica, I think you would need to split the West Coast states in half to accommodate the conservative eastern portions. Inland California for example is quite rural and conservative, as are inland Oregon & Washington.
I could see Pacifica being a thin strip of land along the coast, with a few gaps to give oceanic access to otherwise-landlocked inland areas.
The East Coast could have Atlantia, consisting of NYC, Boston, D.C., Philadelphia, and Baltimore. Again, a thin strip. Upstate New York is quite conservative, as is central and southeast Massachusetts, northwest Connecticut, central and western Pennsylvania, etc.
The rest of the United States would then be 80% conservative and those malcontents such as people in Chicago or Madison or other inland liberal centers could relocate to either coastal country to be with their fellow ideologues.
Of course, these coastal countries would have very weak militaries, since 90% of the U.S. military is based inland and most military personnel would not wish to live in a liberal-dominated zone anyway.
Atlantia would be economically very weak, bankrupt in fact. Pacifica would be okay, because of a few trillion dollar tech companies around SF and Seattle.
I could go on and on. It's very silly. But fun to speculate.
That is a very strange statement, considering that almost all industrialized nations have far more extensive social programs than the US. Where is our universal health care? Where is our paid parental leave, for both fathers and mothers? The US social safety net is thin and torn.
You beat me to it. Well-said, like your thoughtful posts. Couldn't rep you again. I'm living in that net and it is pretty great.
Interesting points, but just a minor correction: CA 163,000 sq miles, 40m people; Germany 137,000 sq miles, 80m people.
Regarding the nation of Pacifica, I think you would need to split the West Coast states in half to accommodate the conservative eastern portions. Inland California for example is quite rural and conservative, as are inland Oregon & Washington.
I could see Pacifica being a thin strip of land along the coast, with a few gaps to give oceanic access to otherwise-landlocked inland areas.
The East Coast could have Atlantia, consisting of NYC, Boston, D.C., Philadelphia, and Baltimore. Again, a thin strip. Upstate New York is quite conservative, as is central and southeast Massachusetts, northwest Connecticut, central and western Pennsylvania, etc.
The rest of the United States would then be 80% conservative and those malcontents such as people in Chicago or Madison or other inland liberal centers could relocate to either coastal country to be with their fellow ideologues.
Of course, these coastal countries would have very weak militaries, since 90% of the U.S. military is based inland and most military personnel would not wish to live in a liberal-dominated zone anyway.
Atlantia would be economically very weak, bankrupt in fact. Pacifica would be okay, because of a few trillion dollar tech companies around SF and Seattle.
I could go on and on. It's very silly. But fun to speculate.
For the fun of it, I'll go along with this. Never try to split up the New England states. The rest of the states may not agree with the rabid right wingers of NH but we are all "family." We are New Englanders and we share certain characteristics. Also most of New England is heavily forested or consists of small towns. We are not Boston.
I think we'd have to keep the existing state lines and if someone's state turned into something political that they didn't agree with, they'd move or just tolerate it. Also, people in Chicago or Madison wouldn't need to leave. They're be a minority in their own state though and might prefer to move.
The submarine base and Coast Guard are located in Connecticut. Most of the funding that helps the low income people in the South comes from the more well off states that are blue states.
I think "Pacifica" and "Atlantia" would join together, although on the east coast we are not as progressive as those on the west coast. Yet we have A LOT more in common than we do with red states. We don't have to be geographically close today because so much is done remotely. (If I had my way New England would just merge with Canada. We have that much in common. Back in history parts of New England and Canada were interchangeable anyway with the borders constantly changing. Very similar people.)
For anyone to think that the few who have initiated violent acts in the past months of protesting--are somehow representative of the entirety of our population, seems delusional at best, at worst, it most likely reflects the mindset of those who seem to be making plans in response to an imagined mass of violent behavior.
My own experience with those who want to portray the world as a terribly dangerous place revolves around their notions of fear and loathing of their fellow countrymen. The talk of them, "being ready" for anyone who threatens them, speaking gleefully about their choice of weapons, imagining their homes being attacked, and some wild eyed tales about their "bug out" plans when things "get too bad.."
The persistent posting about "them." Their ideological political enemies, the Black Lives Matter people, or, when social unrest is relatively quiet, they turn to their own government with all the hatred they can muster, swearing vengeance for any and all trespasses by anyone and everyone. Yes, these are the people we all need to be aware of, as the dangerously delusional fools they've become.
I don't lose any sleep over their imagined Armageddon, or their penchant for violence, but I do see some inevitable irony on the horizon for these gun toting insecure types, and that is the fact that police all over this country are preparing--not for civil war--No, the police are preparing for these well armed citizen vigilantes who will be taking the law into their own hands. Then the reality of their actions will come full circle with respect to their insistence upon maintaining law and order-- at any cost.
These are interesting points. I am a gun-toting nut...no, wait: forget the "nut" part. I have a job that pays quite well, IT executive, and don't believe it's all one big UN conspiracy. Just an unapologetic hobbyist, with a couple rifles and handguns. It's my weekend warrior "John Wick" emulation, really. I don't take it too seriously, though yes I brush up against those who do and few...just a few...are a bit scary.
It isn't a great idea bringing weapons to demonstrations, in my view, a sticky subject of course. I've been to one demonstration (Back the Blue). BLM showed up in equal size, amusingly enough. On katty-corner to us. Soon, we mingled and debated. There was only one person whom I think was a radical, the BLM organizer was a Marxist as far as I could tell. Talking to her was like talking to that wall over there; unf I am certain she felt the same about us. The BtB folks were like me, middle aged mostly and rather quiet. It was educational. Nothing bad happened. I was actually pleased all had a chance to express themselves in a mostly-civil way. Some of the language got salty, which is a bummer as that draws no one to the BLM cause, I feel.
Back to the point, I don't see guys like me "turning on" anyone en masse. Bottom line is I enjoy exercising the rights, with no plans to bug out anywhere except to my back porch to read the paper in the sun. The police do their duty and usually don't take sides, in my observation, nor should they as enforcement arm of the Judicial Branch: they enforce...laws....and justice should be blind. I do not, however, like seeing them unfairly hamstrung from doing their jobs.
Forget about Them, no Them I know of. Figuring this, too, shall pass one of these days. Hopefully the country will be better off for it.
There's a silent, non-violent civil war going, it's been going on for some time now, with polarization. It's also happening in other countries in the world, notably Poland.
An imaginary wall has been created, you stay on your side of the wall, I'll stay on mine.
I've lost a number of relatives and long-standing friends over the last 3-4 years and let them stay on their side of the wall, I want nothing to do with them. In fact, ever again!
Even in my 55+ community, there's a notable division. I told one of my neighbors of whom her other neighbor supported and? I'll never talk to her again! Up goes the wall.
Another poster suggest the possibility of secessions and I think that's the best idea out there today. CA is the same size as Germany, which stands alone, and TX is much bigger than France, so why are we keeping 50 states together when it not necessary.
If you're talking about a physical civil war, this would prevent that. The Blue West Coast states I all but view as foreign countries, and I'm sure others feel the same way, so let's them unite and call the country Pacifica.
I think the term civil war is too strong. However, I am stunned at the number of posts I see here on many of the state forums in which people bring up the politics of an area as a reason for moving. I am a liberal living in a conservative area and while I find the republican politics obnoxious at times, I would never move because of it. In fact, my current retirement plans call for moving to a more conservative place in my state of Utah.
I do think its time for many to rethink some of the things that they say. Its fine to be against this president or any other politician. However, I often hear blanket condemnations here of entire states and regions of the country. Everyone who lives in the South or the North is not bad. There are conservatives in the north and liberals in the south. More importantly, there are millions of people who are somewhere in between.
I heard a man interviewed from North Carolina on the news who identifies as a republican, but had not made up his mind about voting for Trump. He stated that while he identified with republican ideas he was greatly offended by Trump, his tweets, his profanity, his disdain for science, etc. Many people do not have black/white views about what is going on in this country. While I vote democrat, I do not agree with what many democrats say. I think democrats are too soft on immigration and many do not even seem to think maintaining a border with Mexico is even a necessity. I think the country is spending too much money all the way around and neither party is really in line with what I think there. I pretty much support gun rights and am a gun owner. However, no one should have an absolutist view on this. Life is complex. People are complex.
We are a great country and can remain that way. What we really need is a little more tolerance for other points of view and a little less black/white thinking.
I don't foresee a repeat of 1861 because our nation has much changed since then but there will definitely be some sort of divide before the nation reunites again and I see that divide not between North and South or East and West but perhaps between cities and countryside, rich and poor, young and old, well educated and not so well educated, established and non-established, etc. The growing divide between Americans is not just two ways but is actually splintering in many different directions. You've got the divide between those who think that owning property and accumulating wealth at the expense of others is moral versus those who think that living a stable life and redistributing wealth while not necessarily owning property is moral. Then you've got the divide between those who believe in big government versus those who fear government overreach and so on. Social media has definitely played a role in this divide. Years ago, you would have had to have met or known a person to know their beliefs but now with practically everyone broadcasting every one of their thoughts and opinions on social media, it is too easy to pass judgement.
The fact of the matter is, Americans and especially American politicians have always been trying to tell others how to live their lives and this matter has only worsened in recent decades. It is evident here in Massachusetts where if a community, rural or urban, wants to receive funding for an intersection improvement, the plan must include sidewalks, bicycle lanes, and perhaps other provisions for alternative transportation, some of which will be built for naught. The thought that goes into these requirements had to have come from someone thinking only about how urban areas operate but still try to apply them to rural areas where it's impossible to walk or bike to the grocery store especially when there is snow and ice on the ground. This type of thinking pervades all levels of government, not just state or local. I've personally seen brand new sidewalks that lead to nowhere and crosswalks or bicycle tracks put in improper locations and this is all for fulfilling some requirement to get grant money. Are such requirements environmentally beneficial in theory? Sure but they can be problematic as well. They can be costly to build and maintain and this can add to the pressure that cash strapped communities have to improve their infrastructure.
I think in order to reunite and heal, our nation really has to take a step back and have more genuine respect for each other regardless of what they opine or believe in. There is too much of this "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality going on. I can't wait until we have a politician say something like "I'm a renter and I will never buy a house because I don't believe that owning property will bring me happiness but I have to respect my neighbor's stance in owning property because it's not up to me to tell him how to live his life and find happiness."
If I had my way New England would just merge with Canada. We have that much in common.
Not that much in common. For example, Canada's identity revolves very much around the fact that they would not run off to merge with another country.
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