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The year is 2072, the Martian colonies are in revolt over tariffs and the United Earth President sends the UN army to quell the revolts.
Most people live their lives in a dystopian VR cyberscape while the world slowly dies.
The Downtown Greensboro Westin is now three floors tall with more to come "in the summer"
The sun explodes.
You forgot to mention the part of the story where a competing local developer buys the stalled project, releases a rendering of a 40-story tower, then puts up some graffiti and Christmas lights and calls it a day.
Eventually Roy Carroll's legacy downtown project before he retires will be the Project 561 which would most likely be built next to Center Pointe. There are false windows on that side of the building for anticipation of a tower going up next to it. But because of the changing office market due to pandemics, Project 561 would have to be more mixed-use than originally proposed. Unless Greensboro lures a major corporate headquarters its hard seeing 400,000 square foot of office space in a single tower being filled up in the downtown Greensboro Market. He's gonna probably do something like 100,000 to 200,000 square feet and the rest of the tower would be a hotel and apartments. He can get to 561 feet but the mixed-use ratio is going to have to change. The tower could have 10 floors of office space, 15 floors of hotel space, 10 floors of residential all sitting atop an 8 or 9 story parking deck putting the tower at 43 or 44 stories. There is definitely hotel and apartment demand downtown particularly as the next few years go on with other projects and the success of the Tanger Center, so I think he can make it happen. By the time he puts plans in action for that tower, downtown Greensboro will be further along than it is today and they'll be a need for more hotels and residential.
But if Carroll wanted to take less of a risk for his 561 foot tall tower he could build it with 28 floors as he first proposed and build a structural spire on top to push it to the height of a 40 plus story building. Then he could build 8 stories of parking, 6 stories of office, 7 stories of apartments and 7 stories of hotel space. That configuration would be feasible today and not 5 to 10 years down the road. 6 stories of office space in the tower is a very conservative number in the new pandemic era and in particularly in downtown Greensboro. You'll probably see less 20 story office towers being built and more 20 story mixed-use towers being built. If I had to guess what hotel he would put in P561, I'd say maybe Aloft since he changed Aloft plans at Carroll Ballpark South to AC Hotel. Or maybe he could take it a step up a do a Moxy Hotel. It would literally be less than a block from the Tanger Center and would give traveling Broadway and other performers along with other visitors and business travelers a more upscale option than the Marriott across the street. The Moxy Hotel brand fits in well being near a performing arts center.
Eventually Roy Carroll's legacy downtown project before he retires will be the Project 561 which would most likely be built next to Center Pointe. There are false windows on that side of the building for anticipation of a tower going up next to it. But because of the changing office market due to pandemics, Project 561 would have to be more mixed-use than originally proposed. Unless Greensboro lures a major corporate headquarters its hard seeing 400,000 square foot of office space in a single tower being filled up in the downtown Greensboro Market. He's gonna probably do something like 100,000 to 200,000 square feet and the rest of the tower would be a hotel and apartments. He can get to 561 feet but the mixed-use ratio is going to have to change. The tower could have 10 floors of office space, 15 floors of hotel space, 10 floors of residential all sitting atop an 8 or 9 story parking deck putting the tower at 43 or 44 stories. There is definitely hotel and apartment demand downtown particularly as the next few years go on with other projects and the success of the Tanger Center, so I think he can make it happen. By the time he puts plans in action for that tower, downtown Greensboro will be further along than it is today and they'll be a need for more hotels and residential.
But if Carroll wanted to take less of a risk for his 561 foot tall tower he could build it with 28 floors as he first proposed and build a structural spire on top to push it to the height of a 40 plus story building. Then he could build 8 stories of parking, 6 stories of office, 7 stories of apartments and 7 stories of hotel space. That configuration would be feasible today and not 5 to 10 years down the road. 6 stories of office space in the tower is a very conservative number in the new pandemic era and in particularly in downtown Greensboro. You'll probably see less 20 story office towers being built and more 20 story mixed-use towers being built. If I had to guess what hotel he would put in P561, I'd say maybe Aloft since he changed Aloft plans at Carroll Ballpark South to AC Hotel. Or maybe he could take it a step up a do a Moxy Hotel. It would literally be less than a block from the Tanger Center and would give traveling Broadway and other performers along with other visitors and business travelers a more upscale option than the Marriott across the street. The Moxy Hotel brand fits in well being near a performing arts center.
What is the obsession of building a 561’ tall building ? In Greensboro, or anywhere ? It seems like such an odd, arbitrary height. How many hotels (or office buildings) does downtown Greensboro need ? I’ve never seen a situation where a local developer selects an exact final building height and scrambles the various elements (office, residential, hotel) to achieve that exact height, to the exact foot, mind you.
Generally, these decisions are made based upon local microeconomic conditions, rather than on “bragging rights” by some local developer with a giant ego.
What is the obsession of building a 561’ tall building ? In Greensboro, or anywhere ? It seems like such an odd, arbitrary height. How many hotels (or office buildings) does downtown Greensboro need ? I’ve never seen a situation where a local developer selects an exact final building height and scrambles the various elements (office, residential, hotel) to achieve that exact height, to the exact foot, mind you.
Generally, these decisions are made based upon local microeconomic conditions, rather than on “bragging rights” by some local developer with a giant ego.
Nothing wrong with building for "bragging rights" that's what led to the construction of New York City's tallest buildings many decades ago. As long as its feasible.
Nothing wrong with building for "bragging rights" that's what led to theconstruction of New York City's tallest buildings many decades ago. As long as its feasible.
Agreed – and it’s still going on in New York, and will continue to do so as it is the business and financial capital of the world. Roy Carroll certainly has the means to build this building, at any height, but he wouldn’t do it if it didn’t make economic sense, and Greensboro is very different than New York City. There’s not enough demand for a lot of new office space, and there are four (4) new downtown hotels either recently built, under construction or planned, which is a lot for most mid-size cities, especially given the covid environment. It remains to be seen if the market can absorb all of these new / proposed hotel rooms. Condos and apartments are probably the safest bet with some small mix of office and retail.
In other words, sounds more like his planned SOB project more than the Project 561 concept, which Carroll admits, would take a "megasite-type" of event to make the project viable.
Agreed – and it’s still going on in New York, and will continue to do so as it is the business and financial capital of the world. Roy Carroll certainly has the means to build this building, at any height, but he wouldn’t do it if it didn’t make economic sense, and Greensboro is very different than New York City. There’s not enough demand for a lot of new office space, and there are four (4) new downtown hotels either recently built, under construction or planned, which is a lot for most mid-size cities, especially given the covid environment. It remains to be seen if the market can absorb all of these new / proposed hotel rooms. Condos and apartments are probably the safest bet with some small mix of office and retail.
In other words, sounds more like his planned SOB project more than the Project 561 concept, which Carroll admits, would take a "megasite-type" of event to make the project viable.
I think if Carroll were planning an office tower at 561 feet in height, it would never happen because there is no demand for that amount of office space. Its a balancing act between mixed-uses combined with maybe a spire and sitting atop a multilevel parking deck. It's definitely doable but there would have to be more hotel/residential levels combined than office space. I don't see more hotel rooms being a problem especially over the next 5 to 10 years with upcoming downtown projects and potentially a downtown arena and convention center. But apartments are always in high demand. The key is getting the leasing rate right and getting those numbers to pencil out for the construction of a tower that tall. There may have to be more apartments than hotel and office uses. But downtown Greensboro has proven to be a market for high end luxury apartments. Some of the highest apartment leasing rates in the Triad are in downtown Greensboro. People are willing to pay more than $2,000 a month to live in downtown Greensboro. The average apartment rate across the board in Greensboro is about $700 to $850 a month. Its much higher in downtown Greensboro. You won't find an apartment in downtown Greensboro for less than $1,000 a month and I think the most expensive ones are around $2,400.
I think initially Project 561 was planned for the CSOB site. The rendering showed exactly what I was talking about. A 20 plus story tower sitting on an 8 story deck with a huge spire. However he changed the layout not because it was not feasible. It had to due with the arrangement with the city. First the city was to fund the deck underneath the tower like the Westin deal on Davie Street. The city of Greensboro felt the deck was too expensive. Secondly the city wanted a firm timetable at that point because deck had to be open for the use for Project Slugger as well. When a developer in any city proposes a project that large its not going to built tomorrow. So Roy Carroll made a compromise with the city of Greensboro. He planned a more spread out project still with a 20 story tower but to be built in phases so the city would go ahead and build a less expensive deck to open in time for Project Slugger and still serve the parking needs for Carroll South of the Ballpark.
I think the site next to Roy Carroll's Center Pointe tower presents an opportunity to build Project 561 at a future date. But if he wants to build it like he wants it he needs to leave the city of Greensboro out of the project. Too many moving parts.
Public/Private partnerships in downtown Greensboro have been pretty messy in part because of the city's lack of experience in such projects. We've seen the messiness play out in the Westin Hotel project. Fortunately it has not derailed the Westin Hotel.
The original rendering for Carroll South of the Ballpark which was clearly Project 561. The design was a bit strange. Hopefully when he does eventually build it on another site he'll hire some different architects.
The most recent rendering. (The design is likely to change due to the changes with the hotel element. Instead of an Aloft it will be an AC Hotel and the hotel part will go from 9 stories to 12 stories.)
I think its actually better to build Project 561 next to Center Pointe because there would be better balance in Greensboro's skyline. Project 561 by the Ballpark would have stuck out like a sore thumb because there are no surrounding tall highrises in the immediate area of downtown. Project 561 needs to be located in the cluster of downtown's tallest buildings not in a part of downtown where the average height is between 3 and 5 stories. Its just the wrong scale for that location. The current layout fits that location particularly since there is now a 9 story office building at the ballpark.
Nothing wrong with building for "bragging rights" that's what led to the construction of New York City's tallest buildings many decades ago. As long as its feasible.
It was demand combined with the scarcity of land on the island of Manhattan that let to the construction of NYC's tallest buildings above all else. Bragging rights were a secondary consideration.
A 561' tower in Greensboro post-COVID? I wouldn't have held my breath pre-COVID, much less today.
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