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You’ve made novel after novel about this. And I actually agree with you. What I disagree with you is that if you don’t hold one city against boundaries, you don’t do it for for others either. All you’ve done in this thread is make rants about how boundaries don’t change what Plano means for DFW, etc. and you’re not wrong, but if you do that, you have to do it for everywhere else.
People don’t move to Denver Harbor and say “this is ran down but technically it’s within the loop so I’m happy here”. Nor do they go to Uptown Houston and say “this is just outside of the physical loop so this isn’t it”. You’re not going to make all these novels about how borders don’t matter and discount parts of Houston within the loop that are well within the core while being just west of the loop. Even some southwest portions like Bellaire are more connected to the loop than Manor Park for example. You said it yourself. Boundaries don’t matter.
I simply asked you to quote me saying this. I made novel after novel. Ok QUOTE ME ONE TIME saying boundaries don't matter. And the only person discounting anything is YOU. Your discounting the eastern section of the inner loop. I simply said the eastern half of the inner loop is not desirable and is not what people refer to when it comes to popping areas in the loop. Where did I dismiss anything? Do you have me confuse with another member because it sounds like you do.
And as far as your inner search, maybe I missed something but what is 610 LOOP? Is that not the LOOP that's referred to as the inner loop? Taken from wikipedia:
Quote:
Interstate 610 (I-610) is a freeway that forms a 38-mile-long (61 km) loop around the inner city sector of the city of Houston, Texas. Interstate 610, colloquially known as The Loop, Loop 610, The Inner Loop, or just 610, traditionally marks the border between the inner city of Houston ("inside the Loop") and its surrounding areas. It is the innermost of the three Houston beltways, the other two being Beltway 8 (Sam Houston Tollway) and State Highway 99 (Grand Parkway), of which various segments are under construction or planning. In Houston the area inside the 610 Loop is the urban core. Jeff Balke of the Houston Press wrote that the freeway "is as much a social and philosophical divide as a physical one".[2]
It's not rocket science Bro, Is 610 not the loop anymore? When did Houston make this change?
I simply asked you to quote me saying this. I made novel after novel. Ok QUOTE ME ONE TIME saying boundaries don't matter. And the only person discounting anything is YOU. Your discounting the eastern section of the inner loop. I simply said the eastern half of the inner loop is not desirable and is not what people refer to when it comes to popping areas in the loop. Where did I dismiss anything? Do you have me confuse with another member because it sounds like you do.
And as far as your inner search, maybe I missed something but what is 610 LOOP? Is that not the LOOP that's referred to as the inner loop? Taken from wikipedia:
It's not rocket science Bro, Is 610 not the loop anymore? When did Houston make this change?
Considering you’ve mentioned it over and over, it shouldn’t be difficult to see, but ok here’s your example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr
And look I know of people who live in the loop that go out to City Centre every once and a while. City Centre is still in the city of Houston. But from Midtown to City Centre is about the same distance as Uptown Dallas to Cityline in Richardson. The city of Houston is twice as big as Dallas and most Houstonians live outside the inner loop so it's very identical.
Again, I’m not disagreeing with this (or any other time you mentioned boundaries not mattering), what I disagree with is if boundaries don’t matter for one, then they don’t here either. The distance between CityCentre/EC and Downtown Houston is basically the same as Plano to Downtown Dallas. If we take far west heavily suburban areas that happen to lie in the city of Houston, we may as well do the same with Plano and Dallas. You said this, I’m agreeing to what you said.
But if boundaries don’t matter, then they don’t matter. The inner loop doesn’t take away from Houston’s urban core just like parts of south Dallas north of I20 dont there either.
And your Wikipedia article doesn’t matter. This isn’t what people generally call the inner loop. Maybe 15 years ago (heck if I know), but definitely not today. Google is the generic search engine. Wikipedia is the denotative site.
These are the maps that Google pull up for “inner loop”
How many Americans have you heard brag about being able to attend a soccer game in Chicago/SF/NYC/Boston/ New Orleans city core?
I’m sorry but the dynamos are not as big of an attraction to the everyday average Houstonian or tourist coming into Houston. That’s specific to that demographic.
But what are some things that appeal to the general consensus? Amenities/ walkability/ connectivity and vibrancy.
Both Houston and Dallas have amenities in their core. I wouldn’t consider either city to be world class but both have amenities that can appeal to the general public. Next is walkability. Which cities core has more walkable neighborhoods of interest. Well that goes to Dallas. Connectivity and vibrancy. Houston has pockets of vibrancy all throughout the inner loop. The lack of walkable neighborhoods makes it difficult to have connectivity and consistent vibrancy.
I’ll also agree w/ R1070 and say the new AT&T discovery and Farmers Market in Dallas add a little something that’s reminiscent of more tourist and local friendly attractions in more popular cities than what you find in Houston. And that’s simply because these things are much more pedestrian friendly.
Considering you’ve mentioned it over and over, it shouldn’t be difficult to see, but ok here’s your example.
Again, I’m not disagreeing with this (or any other time you mentioned boundaries not mattering), what I disagree with is if boundaries don’t matter for one, then they don’t here either. The distance between CityCentre/EC and Downtown Houston is basically the same as Plano to Downtown Dallas. If we take far west heavily suburban areas that happen to lie in the city of Houston, we may as well do the same with Plano and Dallas. You said this, I’m agreeing to what you said.
But if boundaries don’t matter, then they don’t matter. The inner loop doesn’t take away from Houston’s urban core just like parts of south Dallas north of I20 dont there either.
And your Wikipedia article doesn’t matter. This isn’t what people generally call the inner loop. Maybe 15 years ago (heck if I know), but definitely not today. Google is the generic search engine. Wikipedia is the denotative site.
These are the maps that Google pull up for “inner loop”
And no, that’s not cherry picking. NONE of the maps I’m seeing are including far eastern parts of the loop as part of the “inner loop”.
That quote is not even a good example. You're confusing me at this point. I don't even know your argument AT ALL. Kind of running in circles. I never said boundaries mattered or didn't matter. I simply stated facts. East of 69/288 is IN THE LOOP HENCE (INNER LOOP). Posting up some random maps realtors use to sell property in more desirable areas of the inner loop and communities close to it doesn't dismiss the fact that the neighborhoods that sit in the east are THE LOOP.
You can mentally take those neighborhoods out of the inner loop. You can draw maps and leave out those neighborhoods and pretend they don't exist but if they sit INSIDE the 610 LOOP than they're in the INNER LOOP.
And I live in Houston, maybe me and you live in 2 different cities but people refer to any neighborhood inside the LOOP the INNER LOOP. People just choose to forget those communities because they're underdeveloped in comparison to everything west of it, poverty stricken and let's be honest predominately BLACK AND BROWN. Which is why I said when those areas start going through gentrification I'll bet they'll be grouped in with the inner loop by those who forget it exist.
When the East River project fully develops within the next 5 years I bet you won't have any problem calling the neighborhoods close to East River (5th Ward/Denver Harbor) the Inner Loop. The up and coming DH and OLD5W.
Also that example I used about the drive from Inner Dallas to Richardson had nothing to do with boundaries but simply distance of each city. Houston is the twice the size of Dallas. If the city of Houston has more than Dallas it should it's bigger than Dallas. But if you compare square mileage of both areas than neither one is smoking the other in what they have to offer to each other IMO.
And I say that because when people travel within DFW they co-exist with these different municipalities no different than the entire city of Houston that covers the same size land area. Only difference is in Houston you're still in the city of Houston, Dallas you're in another city but same distance from inner city to more suburban communities.
That quote is not even a good example. You're confusing me at this point. I don't even know your argument AT ALL. Kind of running in circles. I never said boundaries mattered or didn't matter. I simply stated facts. East of 69/288 is IN THE LOOP HENCE (INNER LOOP). Posting up some random maps realtors use to sell property in more desirable areas of the inner loop and communities close to it doesn't dismiss the fact that the neighborhoods that sit in the east are THE LOOP.
No it’s not a bad quote. You (rightfully) pointed out that distance from Downtown to Plano is the same as say Houston CityCentre, etc. hence being in the city limits or not, you have the sane effect so why brag about a heavily suburban part of Houston when it’s so far out. The problem is if this is your criteria (which it is mine as well), then you use the same logic for both cities and for both the good and bad parts of town. Uptown Houston is much more connected to the urban core than Denver Harbour regardless of its physical position in relation or the interstate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr
You can mentally take those neighborhoods out of the inner loop. You can draw maps and leave out those neighborhoods and pretend they don't exist but if they sit INSIDE the 610 LOOP than they're in the INNER LOOP.
And I live in Houston, maybe me and you live in 2 different cities but people refer to any neighborhood inside the LOOP the INNER LOOP. People just choose to forget those communities because they're underdeveloped in comparison to everything west of it, poverty stricken and let's be honest predominately BLACK AND BROWN. Which is why I said when those areas start going through gentrification I'll bet they'll be grouped in with the inner loop by those who forget it exist.
I couldn’t agree anymore, but regardless of why they do it, they do it. You don’t have to tell me America is built on racism. Anyone with a brain knows this. This is partly why people consider Uptown part of the inner loop but not Denver Harbour. You realize you’ve mentioned underdeveloped areas a lot right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr
When the East River project fully develops within the next 5 years I bet you won't have any problem calling the neighborhoods close to East River (5th Ward/Denver Harbor) the Inner Loop. The up and coming DH and OLD5W.
Yes, soon as East River gets built out, people will love to include it in the urban core/inner loop/whatever you want to call it. Right mow, it’s underdeveloped. This is exactly why they don’t call it that. I’m not making the rules. I understand the physical position of everything inside tbe 610 loop. But people ignore them wether it’s for underdevelopment or racism. It’s generally not included in what people consider to be the inner loop
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr
Also that example I used about the drive from Inner Dallas to Richardson had nothing to do with boundaries but simply distance of each city. Houston is the twice the size of Dallas. If the city of Houston has more than Dallas it should it's bigger than Dallas. But if you compare square mileage of both areas than neither one is smoking the other in what they have to offer to each other IMO.
And I say that because when people travel within DFW they co-exist with these different municipalities no different than the entire city of Houston that covers the same size land area. Only difference is in Houston you're still in the city of Houston, Dallas you're in another city but same distance from inner city to more suburban communities.
Here you go again with boundaries not being important when distance is similar. And you’re not wrong. I’m saying if you do this, you have to keep the same energy throughout in both places. The reverse argument would be the same for CityCentre/EC being a suburb since it’s “similar in distance and suburban structure as Plano”. It would have to go for both.
That quote is not even a good example. You're confusing is s you're in another city but same distance from inner city to more suburban communities.
There is a difference when you're comparing DFW to Greater Houston despite the similarity between distances,and places. Houston has more consistent urban clusters and enployment centers than DFW that are closer together with the exception of Greenspoint, Westchase, Memorial City/Energy cooridor.
In terms of clusters of urban fabric, Houston just gives a more consistent feel overall, in spite of the invisible boundaries of the city limits. Dallas definitely is still leading when it comes to the walkable urban developments, but Houston is closing the gap in that regard. Neither city has a life full of pedestrians regardless of the urban setup, so it's really a wash and a moot point.
Here's the thing: DFW people don't care if fun is encapsulated in one municipality or spread across several. We can be in one area and a 30 min or less drive can get us to all kind of cool spots, restaurants, venues. Even two central business districts! We don't care if it's Dallas, Addison, Arlington, Las Colinas. It's DFW and we are okay with that.
Houston ppl seem to have a difficult time understanding this (maybe bc Houston burbs are nothing to brag about). Your massive city would spread across several municipalities in DFW. Our commute time and distance driving through cities here may be shorter than your commute and distance driven without ever leaving your massive city.
Who cares. Put 800 square miles of Houston Metro against 800 SQ miles of DFW and DFW wins.
Here's an analogy:
You guys are bragging about a store that has one massive aisle that contains everything you need. Your argument: this store is better than that one because it has a massive aisle that is better than any individual aisle in that store over there.
Yet, our store is just as large but doesn't have a massive aisle. Instead there's multiple aisles that are neatly arranged and they contain everything you'll find in the other store including extra things. It even takes the same amount of time for us to walk the multiple aisles as it takes you to walk one massive aisle.
So DFW ppl don't care about this silly Houstonian logic. If we were exiled and restricted to one city, then ok, Houston wins easily but real life doesn't work that way.
Except that the bolded is a lie...at least in this forum. The hate against Fort Worth by Dallasites in particular is real; so your bolded statement CAN'T be true. Again, Fort Worth and the rest of DFW is only brought in to "upstage" Houston as far as numbers and metro area go. Otherwise, most of you could care less about the rest of the area.
Except that the bolded is a lie...at least in this forum. The hate against Fort Worth by Dallasites in particular is real; so your bolded statement CAN'T be true. Again, Fort Worth and the rest of DFW is only brought in to "upstage" Houston as far as numbers and metro area go. Otherwise, most of you could care less about the rest of the area.
That's just in this forum. In real life, Dallasites don't hate on FW. I've been in TX majority of my life and spent many years on both sides.
The hate is very one-sided.
Living in Dallas goes like this: You are there and you may go outside of city limits from time to time but it's usually one or two cities over. Fort Worth never crosses your mind and it's hardly ever talked about (if it's ever talked about). If asked about FW, you may say, "Yea. It's kind of close but I don't know anything about it." or "They are different over there, I rather stick to this side." (different meaning more traditional/conservative/slower pace)
On the other hand, FW hates on Dallas big time:
I'd hear hate for Dallas come up in random conversations at least 2-3x a month. "Traffic over there is crazy," "Politicians are corrupt over there" "It's cleaner and nicer here with less homeless people, unlike Dallas," "Dallas is out of control," etc. I don't know if it's an inferiority complex fueled by Dallas having more name recognition or what. But it's real. On the FW subforum of CD, someone asked, "What does don't Dallas my Fort Worth mean?" That is common to hear in FW but nobody in Dallas talks like that about FW.
And while I'm at it, in real life, the same applies to Houstonians. C-D only makes it seem like there's a lot of hate thrown Houston's way. But when I go to Houston and tell people that I'm from Dallas, one of the first few things I hear is, "Dallas! Really! Why would you want to live up there?" or "I know you are having a good time here because Houston is so much better."
When a Houstonian comes to Dallas, here's the common Dallasite response.
Houstonian: "Oh, I'm just here visiting from Houston."
Dallasite: "Oh ok, cool story bro." {sips iced latte and keeps minding his/her business}
And ppl care about the whole area bc ppl say they are from Dallas and don't even live there. They could live in Addison, Carrolton, Las Colinas, GP, Cedar Hill, Mesquite, etc. Or they may frequent those places to visit or hang out with family/friends. Contrary to popular belief, we do cross over invisible city boundaries quite a bit up here. I probably drove through 6 of them today and it was just 30 minutes outside my home.
That's just in this forum. In real life, Dallasites don't hate on FW. I've been in TX majority of my life and spent many years on both sides.
The hate is very one-sided.
Living in Dallas goes like this: You are there and you may go outside of city limits from time to time but it's usually one or two cities over. Fort Worth never crosses your mind and it's hardly ever talked about (if it's ever talked about). If asked about FW, you may say, "Yea. It's kind of close but I don't know anything about it." or "They are different over there, I rather stick to this side." (different meaning more traditional/conservative/slower pace)
On the other hand, FW hates on Dallas big time:
I'd hear hate for Dallas come up in random conversations at least 2-3x a month. "Traffic over there is crazy," "Politicians are corrupt over there" "It's cleaner and nicer here with less homeless people, unlike Dallas," "Dallas is out of control," etc. I don't know if it's an inferiority complex fueled by Dallas having more name recognition or what. But it's real. On the FW subforum of CD, someone asked, "What does don't Dallas my Fort Worth mean?" That is common to hear in FW but nobody in Dallas talks like that about FW.
And while I'm at it, in real life, the same applies to Houstonians. C-D only makes it seem like there's a lot of hate thrown Houston's way. But when I go to Houston and tell people that I'm from Dallas, one of the first few things I hear is, "Dallas! Really! Why would you want to live up there?" or "I know you are having a good time here because Houston is so much better."
When a Houstonian comes to Dallas, here's the common Dallasite response.
Houstonian: "Oh, I'm just here visiting from Houston."
Dallasite: "Oh ok, cool story bro." {sips iced latte and keeps minding his/her business}
And ppl care about the whole area bc ppl say they are from Dallas and don't even live there. They could live in Addison, Carrolton, Las Colinas, GP, Cedar Hill, Mesquite, etc. Or they may frequent those places to visit or hang out with family/friends. Contrary to popular belief, we do cross over invisible city boundaries quite a bit up here. I probably drove through 6 of them today and it was just 30 minutes outside my home.
Lol nah it's definitely two sided between Houston and Dallas. I've heard Houston trashed randomly enough times in Dallas to know what you're saying isn't true. One time in a convo on high school basketball teams in DFW traveling to Houston for a tournament, and one of the comments was "man we gotta go to the armpit of Texas!". I have other examples also so let's be honest here.
I agree it's one sided between Dallas and Fort Worth though. I often heard from people on the FW side that they hate Dallas for whatever reason, yet they'll still go stay at the W or Ritz for a couple nights. Go figure.
Lol nah it's definitely two sided between Houston and Dallas. I've heard Houston trashed randomly enough times in Dallas to know what you're saying isn't true. One time in a convo on high school basketball teams in DFW traveling to Houston for a tournament, and one of the comments was "man we gotta go to the armpit of Texas!". I have other examples also so let's be honest here.
I agree it's one sided between Dallas and Fort Worth though. I often heard from people on the FW side that they hate Dallas for whatever reason, yet they'll still go stay at the W or Ritz for a couple nights. Go figure.
Of the thousands of times that a Dallasite approaches any major crowd I’m in, it’s rare that people start bashing them. It definitely happens but it’s not the usual answer. However, the few times it does happen, it’s . The rivalry is worse to whoever the opposing perspective is to you.
Austin has more recently been a destination people in Texas love to hate more recently.
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