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I've never found Downtown Dallas to be more vibrant than Downtown Houston, at least the parts of Downtown Houston that are vibrant. There are definitely large parts of either one that are dead zones after 5:30 pm. Houston's lower Main St. / Historic District is very active on many nights, and the east side of Downtown was utterly transformed with Discovery Green and the convention / tourism infrastructure built around it. It would help Dallas if its West End had the same vibrancy it had back in the 1980s-90s.
You also seem ignorant of the massive efforts that have already taken place in Downtown Houston to improve its walkability and vibrancy. I already mentioned Discovery Green, a huge game changer and major attraction. Plus in the 2000s probably over half of the pedestrian areas in Downtown were rebuilt and improved. To claim that Houston hasn't been putting in the effort is ludicrous.
This 100%. Dallas’ strength over Houston (including the downtown comparison) is in Dallas filling in the holes. Main St, Avenida/Discovery Green etc there’s nothing in DT Dallas that’s more vibrant than these. But in DT Houston, there’s certain stretches that don’t have much going.
The good thing about this for Houston though is there’s room to grow. GreenStreer was a failure when it first opened but the revitalization of Main St has bounced traffic off to GS. I saw Fertitta is adding a Palm Restaurant there plus the Houston Sports HOF and others it’s much better now than it was. The POST Houston will also give them all traffic.
That said though, there’s plenty of downtown portions in Dallas that have room to fill as well, but overall the main districts are better connected.in DT Houston, the Theater District, Main St, Green Stret, Discovery Green/Avenida, etc are all great but their connections could use some improvement.
I'm not even singling out museums or high end stores at this point. It's pretty general in what the average American looks for in a cities core. Mind you I didn't bring up soccer games. That was Clutch's argument why he leans inner Houston over inner Dallas. And I can respect that. I'm just stating on a general level inner Dallas has plenty appeal and plenty to do where one wouldn't have to leave the core of the city than Houstonian's think. I don't think inner Dallas core pales in comparison to inner Houston at all. I'm starting to think some Houstonians feel this way because they know the inner loop and communities close to it is Houston's biggest strength where DFW has strengths all over their metro. Contrary to popular belief Plano's success doesn't take away from the city of Dallas despite what some think. It only adds to the metroplex.
And I thought we we're talking about both cities cores not their metro anyway. Bottom line Dallas core can definitely hold it's own against Houston and many people prefer Dallas over Houston and vice versa. The amenities in Houston's core aren't worlds apart from what Dallas has to offer. If you were to live in both I don't think you'll miss much in either one. Still in the same tier. I just prefer Dallas connectivity and walkability more because it's closer in structure to the more popular urban cities that I prefer than Houston is.
I don’t think that’s what Clutch was arguing though. He said the sports stadiums in general being located where they are have allowed Houston to create a day to day vibrant environment throughout downtown, EaDo etc. This is true. While the MLS isn’t the biggest draw, it’s still an anchor. And with the Mavs and Stars playing downtown, Dallas has some environment made as well, but it’s significantly less due to the nature of each sport. NBA/NHL combine for 82 games with 15-18K capacity. MLB alone has 81 games with 40-50K capacity. Then added the Rockets 41 games. And the 17 MLS home games. You can vividly see the environment this has created. And even for me who gets turned off by soccer, the MLS stadium being where it is paved the way for Pitch 25 which is a heck of a sports bar.
That said, I agree they DFW’s suburbs don’t exactly limit Dallas’ inner core from prospering. It does have an effect, but it can and is prospering despite this. In the flip, Houston being “single polar”/having a larger urban core than Dallas isn’t stopping The Woodlands, City Place/Spring Wood Village, CityCentre, etc from being tremendous suburbs. There’s an effect but it’s not stopping it. The larger urban core is in Houston and the higher amount of suburbs is in DFW.
As far as high end stores vs sports stadiums, yeah. I buy and sell luxury goods but my niche is much smaller than the sports crowd.
I'm not even singling out museums or high end stores at this point. It's pretty general in what the average American looks for in a cities core. Mind you I didn't bring up soccer games. That was Clutch's argument why he leans inner Houston over inner Dallas. And I can respect that. I'm just stating on a general level inner Dallas has plenty appeal and plenty to do where one wouldn't have to leave the core of the city than Houstonian's think. I don't think inner Dallas core pales in comparison to inner Houston at all. I'm starting to think some Houstonians feel this way because they know the inner loop and communities close to it is Houston's biggest strength where DFW has strengths all over their metro. Contrary to popular belief Plano's success doesn't take away from the city of Dallas despite what some think. It only adds to the metroplex.
And I thought we we're talking about both cities cores not their metro anyway. Bottom line Dallas core can definitely hold it's own against Houston and many people prefer Dallas over Houston and vice versa. The amenities in Houston's core aren't worlds apart from what Dallas has to offer. If you were to live in both I don't think you'll miss much in either one. Still in the same tier. I just prefer Dallas connectivity and walkability more because it's closer in structure to the more popular urban cities that I prefer than Houston is.
When I lived in Dallas, I fairly regularly found myself in places like Plano, Arlington, Addison, Irving, Frisco and even Ft. Worth for things like nightlife and food and sports. Is this a good thing? To some, it would be. I think the people that lived in those areas appreciated having the things they had nearby and went into the city of Dallas less because of it.
But to me, I always felt like if I was doing something outside of my immediate little area, I was sitting in the car for half an hour on the way to another city because Frisco and Ft. Worth were 40 minutes away, Plano and Arlington were 35 minutes, and Irving was about 25 minutes. Not ideal for me.
In Houston, I can probably count on both hands the number of times I've gone to any suburb to do any of those things here. I'm aware that nightlife, food, and sports exist in Sugar Land, Katy, and the Woodlands, (as well as in a few other suburbs), but I've never felt any need to go there to do those things. Even in cases where I'm hanging out with someone who lives in some of those places - they tend to come to the city. Is that a good thing? To me, it is.
For the things that I like to do, the core of Houston is much better than the core of Dallas for almost everything. I'm a foodie and a craft brewer. Houston has better restaurants and breweries. I'm a sports fanatic. I can literally walk or take rail between three stadiums in 20 minutes in Houston. I like museums. Houston has the better collection. I like nightlife. Houston has the better nightlife for me based on what I like. I also think Houston has the better inner-city parks and that's important to me as well. As someone who complains when the weather goes below 60, the weather to do all of these things suits me better as well.
Dallas' strengths tend to be in things I don't particularly care about. Shopping - hate it so I don't care which metro is better here. Walkability - for all of the discussion about how Dallas is better here, I feel like you see about the same number of people actually walking around the cores of each city. If I need to walk somewhere in either core, it's generally not hard to do so. Houston's most unwalkable areas and the areas it gets dinged for in terms of walkability are generally outside the Loop. Within the cores, Dallas has better infrastructure for walking, but its not some dramatic difference. However, as you said, walkability and connectivity is very important to you so I can understand how you would prefer central Dallas. But those are really the only two places where it has an advantage over central Houston imo (along with traffic). Dallas is more reminiscent of the form/structure of cities that you (and many others) prefer. I simply don't care as much about form as I do about function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag
I don’t think that’s what Clutch was arguing though. He said the sports stadiums in general being located where they are have allowed Houston to create a day to day vibrant environment throughout downtown, EaDo etc. This is true. While the MLS isn’t the biggest draw, it’s still an anchor. And with the Mavs and Stars playing downtown, Dallas has some environment made as well, but it’s significantly less due to the nature of each sport. NBA/NHL combine for 82 games with 15-18K capacity. MLB alone has 81 games with 40-50K capacity. Then added the Rockets 41 games. And the 17 MLS home games. You can vividly see the environment this has created. And even for me who gets turned off by soccer, the MLS stadium being where it is paved the way for Pitch 25 which is a heck of a sports bar.
That said, I agree they DFW’s suburbs don’t exactly limit Dallas’ inner core from prospering. It does have an effect, but it can and is prospering despite this. In the flip, Houston being “single polar”/having a larger urban core than Dallas isn’t stopping The Woodlands, City Place/Spring Wood Village, CityCentre, etc from being tremendous suburbs. There’s an effect but it’s not stopping it. The larger urban core is in Houston and the higher amount of suburbs is in DFW.
As far as high end stores vs sports stadiums, yeah. I buy and sell luxury goods but my niche is much smaller than the sports crowd.
Good post. All I was saying is that there are a few specific things that I really like having in very close proximity here in Houston that Dallas doesn't have, and that I find the core of Dallas lacking (relatively-speaking) based on that. The fact I can't go see my downtown Dallas clients (well, pre-covid) have a couple of afternoon meetings, and then literally walk over to watch a baseball game is something I've been able to do in both DC and Houston and has benefited me professionally (as well as being a fun thing to do). You can't recreate stuff like that in the suburbs imo. This is not to say that Dallas doesn't have a good core that some (I'd even argue the so-called "average American") might find better than Houston - I simply am just not one of those people.
Last edited by Mr. Clutch; 08-04-2021 at 11:15 AM..
When I lived in Dallas, I fairly regularly found myself in places like Plano, Arlington, Addison, Irving, Frisco and even Ft. Worth for things like nightlife and food and sports. Is this a good thing? To some, it would be. I think the people that lived in those areas appreciated having the things they had nearby and went into the city of Dallas less because of it.
But to me, I always felt like if I was doing something outside of my immediate little area, I was sitting in the car for half an hour on the way to another city because Frisco and Ft. Worth were 40 minutes away, Plano and Arlington were 35 minutes, and Irving was about 25 minutes. Not ideal for me.
In Houston, I can probably count on both hands the number of times I've gone to any suburb to do any of those things here. I'm aware that nightlife, food, and sports exist in Sugar Land, Katy, and the Woodlands, (as well as in a few other suburbs), but I've never felt any need to go there to do those things. Even in cases where I'm hanging out with someone who lives in some of those places - they tend to come to the city. Is that a good thing? To me, it is.
For the things that I like to do, the core of Houston is much better than the core of Dallas for almost everything. I'm a foodie and a craft brewer. Houston has better restaurants and breweries. I'm a sports fanatic. I can literally walk or take rail between three stadiums in 20 minutes in Houston. I like museums. Houston has the better collection. I like nightlife. Houston has the better nightlife for me based on what I like. I also think Houston has the better inner-city parks and that's important to me as well. As someone who complains when the weather goes below 60, the weather to do all of these things suits me better as well.
Dallas' strengths tend to be in things I don't particularly care about. Shopping - hate it so I don't care which metro is better here. Walkability - for all of the discussion about how Dallas is better here, I feel like you see about the same number of people actually walking around the cores of each city. If I need to walk somewhere in either core, it's generally not hard to do so. Houston's most unwalkable areas and the areas it gets dinged for in terms of walkability are generally outside the Loop. Within the cores, Dallas has better infrastructure for walking, but its not some dramatic difference. However, as you said, walkability and connectivity is very important to you so I can understand how you would prefer central Dallas. But those are really the only two places where it has an advantage over central Houston imo (along with traffic). Dallas is more reminiscent of the form/structure of cities that you (and many others) prefer. I simply don't care as much about form as I do about function.
Good post. All I was saying is that there are a few specific things that I really like having in very close proximity here in Houston that Dallas doesn't have, and that I find the core of Dallas lacking (relatively-speaking) based on that. The fact I can't go see my downtown Dallas clients (well, pre-covid) have a couple of afternoon meetings, and then literally walk over to watch a baseball game is something I've been able to do in both DC and Houston and has benefited me professionally (as well as being a fun thing to do). You can't recreate stuff like that in the suburbs imo. This is not to say that Dallas doesn't have a good core that some (I'd even argue the so-called "average American") might find better than Houston - I simply am just not one of those people.
All of the above I 100% agree with, ESPECIALLY the bolded.
I agree as well. I've said Houston's inner loop is my favorite place in TX. And for diverse crowds (which I care about), Houston's inner core is full of people who actually live within 15-20mins of the establishment you're in (be it club, bar, restaurant, etc).
In Dallas, you can find diversity in the core but it's a lot of people commuting to the place fom 30+ minutes away and it could be in anywhere (Plano, Irving, Arlington, FW, Cedar Hill, etc).
But as you said, spots exist in those places as well but it gets played out quickly. I'm in Arl/Mans/GP area, after a while, the Highlands is played out.
Kessler Park is gorgeous. Whenever we make enough, Kessler is high on the list. But honestly, If I could establish business in Houston, I'd be open to moving there. The way it's set up would make it more advantageous for what I would like to do.
Whoever said topography in Houston is better than DFW has no idea what they are talking about. I'll give Houston credit for being more lush and green but it's flat. There's several hilly areas across DFW. Cedar Hill is just the most well known.
Thats guy's comment about trees in Preston Hollow makes me think he's never seen the area except from The Tollway.
When I lived in Dallas, I fairly regularly found myself in places like Plano, Arlington, Addison, Irving, Frisco and even Ft. Worth for things like nightlife and food and sports. Is this a good thing? To some, it would be. I think the people that lived in those areas appreciated having the things they had nearby and went into the city of Dallas less because of it.
But to me, I always felt like if I was doing something outside of my immediate little area, I was sitting in the car for half an hour on the way to another city because Frisco and Ft. Worth were 40 minutes away, Plano and Arlington were 35 minutes, and Irving was about 25 minutes. Not ideal for me.
In Houston, I can probably count on both hands the number of times I've gone to any suburb to do any of those things here. I'm aware that nightlife, food, and sports exist in Sugar Land, Katy, and the Woodlands, (as well as in a few other suburbs), but I've never felt any need to go there to do those things. Even in cases where I'm hanging out with someone who lives in some of those places - they tend to come to the city. Is that a good thing? To me, it is.
For the things that I like to do, the core of Houston is much better than the core of Dallas for almost everything. I'm a foodie and a craft brewer. Houston has better restaurants and breweries. I'm a sports fanatic. I can literally walk or take rail between three stadiums in 20 minutes in Houston. I like museums. Houston has the better collection. I like nightlife. Houston has the better nightlife for me based on what I like. I also think Houston has the better inner-city parks and that's important to me as well. As someone who complains when the weather goes below 60, the weather to do all of these things suits me better as well.
Dallas' strengths tend to be in things I don't particularly care about. Shopping - hate it so I don't care which metro is better here. Walkability - for all of the discussion about how Dallas is better here, I feel like you see about the same number of people actually walking around the cores of each city. If I need to walk somewhere in either core, it's generally not hard to do so. Houston's most unwalkable areas and the areas it gets dinged for in terms of walkability are generally outside the Loop. Within the cores, Dallas has better infrastructure for walking, but its not some dramatic difference. However, as you said, walkability and connectivity is very important to you so I can understand how you would prefer central Dallas. But those are really the only two places where it has an advantage over central Houston imo (along with traffic). Dallas is more reminiscent of the form/structure of cities that you (and many others) prefer. I simply don't care as much about form as I do about function.
Good post. All I was saying is that there are a few specific things that I really like having in very close proximity here in Houston that Dallas doesn't have, and that I find the core of Dallas lacking (relatively-speaking) based on that. The fact I can't go see my downtown Dallas clients (well, pre-covid) have a couple of afternoon meetings, and then literally walk over to watch a baseball game is something I've been able to do in both DC and Houston and has benefited me professionally (as well as being a fun thing to do). You can't recreate stuff like that in the suburbs imo. This is not to say that Dallas doesn't have a good core that some (I'd even argue the so-called "average American") might find better than Houston - I simply am just not one of those people.
1) Houston suburbs pale in comparison to DFW suburbs so yeah I wouldn't see the need to go to the burbs if you live in the actual city of Houston.
2) I get if your a sports fanatic or like other particular things than Houston's inner core would work better for YOU. I know a lot of other people could care less about going to a sports game or hitting up museums on a weekly or monthly basis. With that said, I was speaking from my experiences as well.
There would be no reason for me to leave the urban core of the city of Dallas when I have the option of biking, walking or taking DART to my destinations of interest. Unless I wanted to go to Legacy Plano or a Football and baseball game(hate the Cowboys and not a Rangers fan) there's no point in leaving. You'll have access to museums, parks, bars, breweries, shopping, restaurants, recreation, etc. That's just my personal preference.
1) Houston suburbs pale in comparison to DFW suburbs so yeah I wouldn't see the need to go to the burbs if you live in the actual city of Houston.
2) I get if your a sports fanatic or like other particular things than Houston's inner core would work better for YOU. I know a lot of other people could care less about going to a sports game or hitting up museums on a weekly or monthly basis. With that said, I was speaking from my experiences as well.
There would be no reason for me to leave the urban core of the city of Dallas when I have the option of biking, walking or taking DART to my destinations of interest. Unless I wanted to go to Legacy Plano or a Football and baseball game(hate the Cowboys and not a Rangers fan) there's no point in leaving. You'll have access to museums, parks, bars, breweries, shopping, restaurants, recreation, etc. That's just my personal preference.
I gotcha. It's funny to me that we can agree on #1, but then if I were to say "the city of Dallas pales in comparison to the city of Houston" it would be highly controversial. DFW suburbs are definitely better but the gap between them and Houston suburbs isn't bigger than the gap between the two cities themselves imo.
And the bolded is exactly why I prefer Houston - there is no "unless" - I can do all of those things plus sports in the city and more specifically, in the core. Just have to deal with a few janky sidewalks from time to time.
I gotcha. It's funny to me that we can agree on #1, but then if I were to say "the city of Dallas pales in comparison to the city of Houston" it would be highly controversial. DFW suburbs are definitely better but the gap between them and Houston suburbs isn't bigger than the gap between the two cities themselves imo.
And the bolded is exactly why I prefer Houston - there is no "unless" - I can do all of those things plus sports in the city and more specifically, in the core. Just have to deal with a few janky sidewalks from time to time.
This is Houstonians biggest argument.
Here's the thing: DFW people don't care if fun is encapsulated in one municipality or spread across several. We can be in one area and a 30 min or less drive can get us to all kind of cool spots, restaurants, venues. Even two central business districts! We don't care if it's Dallas, Addison, Arlington, Las Colinas. It's DFW and we are okay with that.
Houston ppl seem to have a difficult time understanding this (maybe bc Houston burbs are nothing to brag about). Your massive city would spread across several municipalities in DFW. Our commute time and distance driving through cities here may be shorter than your commute and distance driven without ever leaving your massive city.
Who cares. Put 800 square miles of Houston Metro against 800 SQ miles of DFW and DFW wins.
Here's an analogy:
You guys are bragging about a store that has one massive aisle that contains everything you need. Your argument: this store is better than that one because it has a massive aisle that is better than any individual aisle in that store over there.
Yet, our store is just as large but doesn't have a massive aisle. Instead there's multiple aisles that are neatly arranged and they contain everything you'll find in the other store including extra things. It even takes the same amount of time for us to walk the multiple aisles as it takes you to walk one massive aisle.
So DFW ppl don't care about this silly Houstonian logic. If we were exiled and restricted to one city, then ok, Houston wins easily but real life doesn't work that way.
I gotcha. It's funny to me that we can agree on #1, but then if I were to say "the city of Dallas pales in comparison to the city of Houston" it would be highly controversial. DFW suburbs are definitely better but the gap between them and Houston suburbs isn't bigger than the gap between the two cities themselves imo.
And the bolded is exactly why I prefer Houston - there is no "unless" - I can do all of those things plus sports in the city and more specifically, in the core. Just have to deal with a few janky sidewalks from time to time.
There's no unless though because Houston's suburbs are highly underwhelming in comparison to DFW. I call it more options in DFW. In Houston the inner loop is the center of the universe. And really it's not the entire inner loop. With the exception of EADO, gentrified parts of 2nd ward, and 3rd ward, everything east of 69 and 288 is seriously underdeveloped and lagging in QOL. No different than what you get out the loop. Everything west of 69/45 in the loop is the bread and butter on a consistent basis.
And look I know of people who live in the loop that go out to City Centre every once and a while. City Centre is still in the city of Houston. But from Midtown to City Centre is about the same distance as Uptown Dallas to Cityline in Richardson. The city of Houston is twice as big as Dallas and most Houstonians live outside the inner loop so it's very identical. But someone who life revolves heavily around sports than yeah I guess you can say Dallas "pales". I don't think so. Actually heard many people from other cities say for a city Houston's size it punches below it's weight.
But I don't think either city is that far above each other. And mind you I prefer Inner loop Houston more than Inner Dallas. But not by much and that's mostly due to the cultural offerings I get in the inner loop from a Black perspective. Strictly on a city level I prefer Inner Dallas more but not by a lot.
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