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The only thing LA has over any other major city in America is few rainy days and almost no below-freezing days. If you want to be near hiking and outdoors stuff, that's fine. But as for an actual city, LA is not that great. It's the geography of LA that people like, not actually the city of LA. If LA had NYC's climate, LA wouldn't even be on anyone's radar as a cool place.
And when you have a normal 9-5 M-F job, it's not like you can actually enjoy the nice weather that often. You get the weekends. The rest of the year, you're sitting in traffic to/from work and then in an office for hours per day. I mean...great...you see sun and it's warm and sunny while you sit in your air conditioned car to your air conditioned office and then drive to an air conditioned restaurant in an ugly strip mall in your air conditioned car before going home to your air conditioned house and when you go bar hopping at night you have to bring a light jacket with you because nights don't actually stay warm like they do on the east coast.
There might be tons of stuff to do, but you're CONSTANTLY sitting in traffic to do ANYTHING. Traffic to the museums, traffic to the bars, traffic to the beach, traffic to the mountains, traffic to downtown, traffic to the amusement parks. So yeah there's stuff to do, but that nonstop traffic is just sooooooooooo draining.
And the beach itself sucks. The water is cold. You can barely go out that far until it drops off steeply. The waves are so big it's exhausting just to play in the water and cool off. LA doesn't actually really focus on the beach the same way many east coast resort towns do. Even NYC has Coney Island. You get there on a direct subway line from Manhattan. It feels like a real beach getaway. LA doesn't have the bar/restaurant/club type of scene right on the beach the way other cities do. Some, yes. But vast stretches are just McMansions facing the beach.
Nothing feels different. Go to the beach, it feels like LA. Go to DTLA for an urban night out, it feels like LA. Go hiking, it feels like LA since everyone is there for the Insta. Go to the mountains for skiing/snowboarding, it feels like LA. OTOH, I actually enjoy going to a place that feels like a real getaway. A day at the Jersey Shore feels like a real getaway. A weekend in the Catskills or Poconos feels like a real winter getaway.
It's secluded and there isn't much around LA to see and do in terms of other cities and their cultures. You have San Diego and that's about it. Next closest cities are SF, Phoenix and Las Vegas, but with bad traffic, they can be an 8 hour drive away. And trains only exist to SD. On the east coast, you can drive from one city to another that feels like an entirely different place in a very short amount of time. Trains are sometimes even faster than driving to one of the other cities. Once you're in the city, LA's public transit is not sufficient to ease traffic concerns. In most other large, global cities throughout the world, you wouldn't even THINK of renting a car. You just know you can take public transit all over. In LA, renting a car is almost a necessity when visiting. It's possible without, but not easy.
As for architecture, what are you talking about the East Coast is 99% colonial boxes? I mean...have you heard of places like Boston, Providence, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC, Miami, etc.? LA has some good architecture, but the old historic buildings in cities of the Northeast can't be matched in LA. Unless you're talking about like suburban Maryland, Boston suburbs, Westchester County, etc., idk where you're seeing 99% colonial boxes. On the same note, I could say LA is 99% 1950s post-war boxes that are just a collection of squares inside other squares with no character whatsoever. Oh and don't get me started on my hatred for the dingbat apartment style.
I truly think LA is one of the most overrated places on earth. I'm from there. I've lived in LA, San Francisco, Louisville, Jersey City, Philadelphia, Madrid (Spain), and Bologna (Italy).
I hear you, and ultimately - to each their own. That being said, I will try to offer more insights on some of the things you mentioned:
Beach: Yes, the water is cold in the SoCal beaches - but tbh, you are not gonna find warm ocean water anywhere in the US except for Hawaii, Guam, South Florida, Puerto Rico and other US territories. Certainly not in the dingy, boring East Coast beaches such as Jersey Shore, VA Beach, Ocean City. It is more about the beach culture, beach lifestyle so to speak - of which SoCal offers much much better than anywhere in the East Coast.
Architecture: I am talking about real estate/housing architecture, not old historical buldings. SoCal and much of the West Coast in general offers all types, be it colonial, contemporary, Spanish/Mediterranean and other types. East Coast is one ugly colonial box after the other or the uglier SFH tract homes, atleast where I live in the DC area - the close-in suburbs of Northern VA and Maryland.
Traffic/Getting Around: Yes, LA is too much of a sprawl and requires heavy dependence on automobile for transport needs. I agree East Coast is a lot more accessible, and that ultimately is up to each individual as to what works better for them. The sprawl does mean a lot more eclectic variety of neighborhoods, hiking trails, parks, beaches etc to take advantage of.
WEATHER: Again, depends on individual preferences. A lot of people like the cold, snow, changing seasons, even cloudy/overcast weather -- good for them. I find East Coast winters and lack of sunshine during this time to be miserable lol. The weather SoCal offers allows you to stay indoors or outdoors, go to the beach or go skiing in the same season within a few hours driving distance. Those options are hard to beat.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,191,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madisonisahome
I agree with you on looking at the positives. But I have questions about your negative view on other places. I've lived in large and small cities and don't understand many points here, at least regarding a city as big as Phoenix.
Most moderate sized 'fly over dead end' American cities... do they not have enough educated people for you, really? LA's demographic stats on educational attainment are much worse than many smaller flyover cities.
What does 'global presence' mean? I agree LA is a very cosmopolitan place.
If you can't find indoor and outdoor activities in a place like Phoenix I can't believe you sincerely tried hard to look. In boring flyover Madison WI there's a ton of things to do and it's a tiny fraction the size and geographical complexity of LA. Same with entertainment and cultural amenities. Yes LA has a lot of cultural events but does Phoenix not have any? And dining, nightlife... I'd understand if you lived in a rural area but not a large city.
Not enough career options in the large metropolitan 'flyover' areas of the US? No large LGBT community? I honestly would be very interested to hear how LA is so much different in all these aspects because I find it would seriously impact my future relocation choices to learn that my current region is so awful.
Especially considering practical realities of what a person can access in a reasonable travel time. In some flyover cities it's easy to drive from one end to the other in a short amount of time, so any cultural/social event in the metro area is available to you. LA has awesome opportunities in many ways but I didn't know that other places were that that much worse.
While Finper left you a jaded, passive-aggressive dig response, jesshm431 did a good and pretty thorough job elaborating on my points. But if I may elaborate myself:
Phoenix is an armpit. Yes, on paper it has the guise of being a "big city" due to its size as a city proper as well as the metro area, the reality is much, much different. If you get past the overly positive "yay Phoenix" crowd, you'll find a more realist perspective that the area as a whole is well beyond where it should be in its development. I could very easily write a dissertation about what that place lacks, but I'll keep this focused on LA. I may use Phoenix as a reference point, but I want to try to address LA precisely. Curiously, I also mentioned OKC, which you didn't mention once in your rebuttal, only Phoenix.
First, I'd like to see which data you're referencing regarding education. In two cursory searches I found LA ranked 98th most educated... and also 36th. That's a pretty big disparity. I didn't look beyond that, admittedly. So, which criteria and sources are you using?
I thought global presence was self-explanatory. The dining scene might be somewhat less diverse than in New York, but for the most part the world is well represented in LA restaurants. Beyond that, you can often find specialty stores that sell food and goods from overseas, as well as unique services, such as Korean saunas, Thai markets, Bangladeshi butchers, Armenian delis, etc. That's in large part on account of the diverse population from all over Earth, which really enriches the culture and fabric of the city. You can spend just a few minutes watching planes land at LAX to get an idea how well connected the region is to the world in that regard, but the city also has a lot of global companies based here and foreign companies with operations here. LA is also a city with name recognition around the world due to its cosmopolitan appeal and nature. Outside of America, I'm sure you'd have difficulty finding people who have heard of Phoenix or Madison. Neither of those cities have anything recognizable in them even within the country. On top of that, LA is an Alpha world city, whereas Phoenix is a Gamma and Madison is barely a blip.
Career opportunities are definitely on a case-by-case basis, and I believe you need to look at your own profession and see what your opportunities and potential are. I'm going to really emphasize this, because people seem to distort it as a black and white issue, sort of like "jobs available" when those could mean fast food and hospitality. In some fields and industries, you have more potential in LA than elsewhere, though depending what you do, you may struggle. At the job I had in Phoenix, I was making less than $35,000 per year and raises were standard across the company (an insulting pittance). Had I quit that job and moved to another in town, my financial situation would actually have been worse because that was the market rate (well below the national average in my industry), and at my job I had the benefit of working a lot of overtime and holidays. Despite the reputed "low cost of living" there, I had to work every minute of overtime I could to get by. Moving to LA meant a substantial pay increase, and I don't need a second job or overtime to get by here.
I don't know (nor care) if you identify within the LGBT spectrum, but there are certain specific issues people not in the community can't always fathom or see. In some places, you may be met with hostility and even violence, such as the recent story of two straight men in Dallas targeting gay men to beat and rob them, or in "liberal" Austin, a former policeman stabbed a gay man and cited a "gay panic" defense, meaning he was found not guilty and did not go to jail. California does not allow that as a viable defense in court. On top of that, plus other liberties, people in the city are generally more tolerant and people aren't shamed into hiding. It also helps to have a much larger dating pool, more venues and services, and be able to just live your life. It can be hard to understand if you haven't lived that life. And because you want to know more about Phoenix for whatever reason, just know how fun it is to be out in the summer sun cleaning the six-letter f-word off your car window in permanent marker, or having a couple brave guys whiz by on bikes and use the same expletive. I should mention that both of those happened in a more prominent "gayborhood" there, meaning those people went out of their way to do that and were targeting patrons.
If you want to find outdoor activities in day 50 of 110+ heat in Phoenix, be my guest. Personally, I hated having sweat patches on my clothes five or six months out of the year just from driving to work, so I wasn't keen on spending my days in sweltering heat and opted instead to pay high electric bills for small apartments. Outdoor activities in LA are more year-round. You also have a much larger variety of both indoor and outdoor. If your tastes aren't very complex or varied, then you probably don't need or want the amenities in LA and a smaller city may suffice.
While Finper left you a jaded, passive-aggressive dig response, jesshm431 did a good and pretty thorough job elaborating on my points. But if I may elaborate myself:
I thought global presence was self-explanatory. The dining scene might be somewhat less diverse than in New York, but for the most part the world is well represented in LA restaurants. Beyond that, you can often find specialty stores that sell food and goods from overseas, as well as unique services, such as Korean saunas, Thai markets, Bangladeshi butchers, Armenian delis, etc. That's in large part on account of the diverse population from all over Earth, which really enriches the culture and fabric of the city. You can spend just a few minutes watching planes land at LAX to get an idea how well connected the region is to the world in that regard, but the city also has a lot of global companies based here and foreign companies with operations here. LA is also a city with name recognition around the world due to its cosmopolitan appeal and nature. Outside of America, I'm sure you'd have difficulty finding people who have heard of Phoenix or Madison. Neither of those cities have anything recognizable in them even within the country. On top of that, LA is an Alpha world city, whereas Phoenix is a Gamma and Madison is barely a blip.
I'd argue that LA's dining scene is superior to that of NYC, both in terms of quality and the wide variety of types of food available at all price points. African and Middle Eastern cuisines may be two exception.
This is ofcourse if you consider the Greater LA area/LA County as a whole, and not just the core/key areas.
I'd argue that LA's dining scene is superior to that of NYC, both in terms of quality and the wide variety of types of food available at all price points. African and Middle Eastern cuisines may be two exception.
This is ofcourse if you consider the Greater LA area/LA County as a whole, and not just the core/key areas.
I wouldn't go that far. It's easier to find quality Mexican food in LA. Almost any taqueria you want into, you are almost guaranteed it will be good. However, in NYC you have to hunt them down. I'm from LA. I know good tacos. I've found very good tacos, you just have to search for them. However, there is no comparing the quality of pizza and bagels in NYC.
Also, the Caribbean and Latin food in NYC is better. LA just doesn't have the Caribbean and Latin populations that NYC does. There are a lot of Jamaican restaurants, Cuban and Puerto Rican restaurants are all over, Peruvian restaurants are pretty common especially in NJ, Newark has an entire neighborhood of Brazilian/Portuguese/Spanish food. So while good Mexican may be harder to find, it exists here, and we have far better Caribbean and Latin food PLUS better pizza and bagels.
Also the Indian food is better here, with several Indian neighborhoods.
As for East/Southeast Asian cuisine, they are pretty similar though. LA is not a bad food city. Far from it. I just think NYC has more diversity of cuisine at a higher quality. All of the food I mentioned can be found in LA, but the options are far more limited in my experiences.
I wouldn't go that far. It's easier to find quality Mexican food in LA. Almost any taqueria you want into, you are almost guaranteed it will be good. However, in NYC you have to hunt them down. I'm from LA. I know good tacos. I've found very good tacos, you just have to search for them. However, there is no comparing the quality of pizza and bagels in NYC.
Also, the Caribbean and Latin food in NYC is better. LA just doesn't have the Caribbean and Latin populations that NYC does. There are a lot of Jamaican restaurants, Cuban and Puerto Rican restaurants are all over, Peruvian restaurants are pretty common especially in NJ, Newark has an entire neighborhood of Brazilian/Portuguese/Spanish food. So while good Mexican may be harder to find, it exists here, and we have far better Caribbean and Latin food PLUS better pizza and bagels.
Also the Indian food is better here, with several Indian neighborhoods.
As for East/Southeast Asian cuisine, they are pretty similar though. LA is not a bad food city. Far from it. I just think NYC has more diversity of cuisine at a higher quality. All of the food I mentioned can be found in LA, but the options are far more limited in my experiences.
Duly noted on Caribbean and Latin food.
For Indian food, Cerritos, Artesia and even a few places in SFV will offer solid Indian food which is on the same par as NYC/NJ.
Asian food, NYC is indeed excellent but LA overall has overtaken NYC by a mile. Especially with the Chinese food scene in SGV.
For Indian food, Cerritos, Artesia and even a few places in SFV will offer solid Indian food which is on the same par as NYC/NJ.
Asian food, NYC is indeed excellent but LA overall has overtaken NYC by a mile. Especially with the Chinese food scene in SGV.
About the Latin food, don't get confused when people here call it Spanish food. New Yorkers often annoyingly refer to any culture that speaks Spanish as "Spanish" regardless of the fact that only people from Spain are Spanish. They often refuse to differentiate between Puerto Rican/Cuban/Dominican which I often group as Caribbean, and I've even heard some people reference Mexican and Argentinian food as Spanish, just because they speak Spanish in those countries. Spanish from Spain food has a large presence in Newark's Ironbound.
Again, it's not that LA actually LACKS these options per se, it's just that NYC likely has a higher concentration, especially with how many ethnic neighborhoods the NYC metro has.
LA overtaking NYC by a mile in Asian food? I highly doubt that. Have you heard of Flushing? Chinatown in Manhattan is not the IT place for Chinese food and culture like people think it is. Flushing is NYC's answer to the SGV and it's amazing. Then there is still Chinatown Manhattan and Sunset Park Brooklyn. The one I'd be most inclined to lean towards LA is Korean, as Koreatown LA is huge. There are a few Ktowns in NYC, but the Manhattan one is not as large and the Bergen County Ktowns are not as prominently Korean as LA's Ktwon. The neighborhood of Jackson Heights alone could rival some entire metro areas for diversity, leading to a very diverse restaurant scene as well.
If there is one East/Southeast Asian cuisine that LA definitely cannot claim it is better at, it's Chinese. While there is great Japanese, Korea, and Vietnamese food in NYC, we do lack the official ethnic enclaves that LA has with Little Tokyo, Little Osaka (Sawtelle), Koreatown, and Little Saigon. The quality is there in NYC, but not the concentration like LA. I'd argue that even though LA has the larger Thai population, though, Thai food is equal.
Phoenix is an armpit. Yes, on paper it has the guise of being a "big city" due to its size as a city proper as well as the metro area, the reality is much, much different. If you get past the overly positive "yay Phoenix" crowd, you'll find a more realist perspective that the area as a whole is well beyond where it should be in its development. I could very easily write a dissertation about what that place lacks, but....
Shhh....we're not supposed to bash any city in AZ....some of the California haters are about to move there, and we don't want to ruin it for them.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,191,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now
Shhh....we're not supposed to bash any city in AZ....some of the California haters are about to move there, and we don't want to ruin it for them.
They'll find out in time
I think Hunter S. Thompson put it best:
If there is in fact, a heaven and a hell, all we know for sure is that hell will be a viciously overcrowded version of Phoenix—a clean well lighted place full of sunshine and bromides and fast cars where almost everyone seems vaguely happy, except those who know in their hearts what is missing... And being driven slowly and quietly into the kind of terminal craziness that comes with finally understanding that the one thing you want is not there. Missing.
It's one of those things you really come to understand living there, especially if you're used to different standards.
While Finper left you a jaded, passive-aggressive dig response, jesshm431 did a good and pretty thorough job elaborating on my points. But if I may elaborate myself:
Phoenix is an armpit. Yes, on paper it has the guise of being a "big city" due to its size as a city proper as well as the metro area, the reality is much, much different. If you get past the overly positive "yay Phoenix" crowd, you'll find a more realist perspective that the area as a whole is well beyond where it should be in its development. I could very easily write a dissertation about what that place lacks, but I'll keep this focused on LA. I may use Phoenix as a reference point, but I want to try to address LA precisely. Curiously, I also mentioned OKC, which you didn't mention once in your rebuttal, only Phoenix.
First, I'd like to see which data you're referencing regarding education. In two cursory searches I found LA ranked 98th most educated... and also 36th. That's a pretty big disparity. I didn't look beyond that, admittedly. So, which criteria and sources are you using?
I thought global presence was self-explanatory. The dining scene might be somewhat less diverse than in New York, but for the most part the world is well represented in LA restaurants. Beyond that, you can often find specialty stores that sell food and goods from overseas, as well as unique services, such as Korean saunas, Thai markets, Bangladeshi butchers, Armenian delis, etc. That's in large part on account of the diverse population from all over Earth, which really enriches the culture and fabric of the city. You can spend just a few minutes watching planes land at LAX to get an idea how well connected the region is to the world in that regard, but the city also has a lot of global companies based here and foreign companies with operations here. LA is also a city with name recognition around the world due to its cosmopolitan appeal and nature. Outside of America, I'm sure you'd have difficulty finding people who have heard of Phoenix or Madison. Neither of those cities have anything recognizable in them even within the country. On top of that, LA is an Alpha world city, whereas Phoenix is a Gamma and Madison is barely a blip.
Career opportunities are definitely on a case-by-case basis, and I believe you need to look at your own profession and see what your opportunities and potential are. I'm going to really emphasize this, because people seem to distort it as a black and white issue, sort of like "jobs available" when those could mean fast food and hospitality. In some fields and industries, you have more potential in LA than elsewhere, though depending what you do, you may struggle. At the job I had in Phoenix, I was making less than $35,000 per year and raises were standard across the company (an insulting pittance). Had I quit that job and moved to another in town, my financial situation would actually have been worse because that was the market rate (well below the national average in my industry), and at my job I had the benefit of working a lot of overtime and holidays. Despite the reputed "low cost of living" there, I had to work every minute of overtime I could to get by. Moving to LA meant a substantial pay increase, and I don't need a second job or overtime to get by here.
I don't know (nor care) if you identify within the LGBT spectrum, but there are certain specific issues people not in the community can't always fathom or see. In some places, you may be met with hostility and even violence, such as the recent story of two straight men in Dallas targeting gay men to beat and rob them, or in "liberal" Austin, a former policeman stabbed a gay man and cited a "gay panic" defense, meaning he was found not guilty and did not go to jail. California does not allow that as a viable defense in court. On top of that, plus other liberties, people in the city are generally more tolerant and people aren't shamed into hiding. It also helps to have a much larger dating pool, more venues and services, and be able to just live your life. It can be hard to understand if you haven't lived that life. And because you want to know more about Phoenix for whatever reason, just know how fun it is to be out in the summer sun cleaning the six-letter f-word off your car window in permanent marker, or having a couple brave guys whiz by on bikes and use the same expletive. I should mention that both of those happened in a more prominent "gayborhood" there, meaning those people went out of their way to do that and were targeting patrons.
If you want to find outdoor activities in day 50 of 110+ heat in Phoenix, be my guest. Personally, I hated having sweat patches on my clothes five or six months out of the year just from driving to work, so I wasn't keen on spending my days in sweltering heat and opted instead to pay high electric bills for small apartments. Outdoor activities in LA are more year-round. You also have a much larger variety of both indoor and outdoor. If your tastes aren't very complex or varied, then you probably don't need or want the amenities in LA and a smaller city may suffice.
Phoenix is just one example that I used since you mentioned it. You spoke of a vast area of the USA, not just Phoenix... I was responding to your post that I thought said that your quality of life was significantly worse and that living in any of the vast non-coastal USA is/was a big waste of years of your life.
RE education: Just google search the percentage of Millenials with a college degree by metro area, or adults as a whole to find what you're asking for. There's a NY Times webpage ranking every metro by % of adults with a degree. And this site for Millenials https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...lennials-live/
Statistically LA doesn't show any significant career advantage when looking at unemployment rates or comparative salaries adjusted by CoL. Software developers for example come out far ahead in Phoenix - the example city you mention as being much worse than LA for your career - when looking at average salary & COL.
Regarding global presence, I still don't understand. I've never heard a psychologist say that living in a cosmopolitan place has any significant benefits for long term well-being, unless you're talking about a very particular situation such as being an immigrant looking to be near relatives & your own culture. Regarding dining, there's plenty of great mom & pop dining to be found all over flyover country, both large cities and small. RE chain resturants: I have relatives in small towns who never eat at chain restaurants either, and have access to authentic ethnic dining. The best Thai food I've ever had was in a city of 20,000 people in a micropolitan area. My point is I don't think for most people LA's cosmopolitan advantage has enough significance for day to day life as to make a real difference in a person's well-being. Certainly not enough to cause a person's life to feel relatively wasted.
I agree that the LGBT situation in LA is better than most places but again there are places all over flyover country that are fairly similar. Using isolated anecdotes involving single people in areas of millions of people doesn't say much. I've talked to many LGBT people in flyover country, and despite facing difficulties, overall are able to live their lives without discrimination being a serious enough of a problem to significantly reduce their well-being. Not to say that there aren't little differences between LA and other places.. I agree that LGBT tolerance in liberal cities is overstated and still a serious problem. But not enough to make a significant QOL difference for most people.
RE summer heat. Phoenix is much hotter than almost anywhere in the USA except areas near the Gulf of Mexico. Most of flyover country is much cooler. I know LA residents tend to hate cold temps but geographical comparisons of life satisfaction and other evidence show that cold winter doesn't make life suck for most people. If a person visits a cold place from LA, they're most likely not acclimatized and not know how to dress properly so understandably it will feel very uncomfortable and they'll think cold weather is horrible. But acclimatization and dressing properly allows a person to enjoy the outdoors all year round in most of flyover country. I've enjoyed the outdoors at 100F and at 0F and I'm a wimp who complains about the weather. LA's climate is not necessary to enjoy the outdoors all year round. Anyone who says otherwise I have to ask if you've tried going outside in cold weather after being acclimatized for it and dressing properly enough to be warm from head to finger to toe. Lots of people do it in Minnesota, Kansas, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Texas, Tennessee, etc.. And in the summers of most of the US, heat acclimatization and proper scheduling is enough to enjoy July in most places. Going out at 9AM and 9PM in July instead of the mid-day heat isn't too hard for most people.
I agree that LA has a lot to offer. I'm listening to you. I still am not understanding how flyover country makes a person's life suck compared to LA though for most Americans. The differences are far too subtle to be significant enough when considering how human psychology works, from what I can tell. Maybe my guess is wrong though... I'm just not understanding the details fully enough.
Last edited by Madisonisahome; 01-13-2019 at 07:01 PM..
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the East Coast is 99% colonial boxes? I mean...have you heard of places like Boston, Providence, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC, Miami, etc.? LA has some good architecture, but the old historic buildings in cities of the Northeast can't be matched in LA. Unless you're talking about like suburban Maryland, Boston suburbs, Westchester County, etc., idk where you're seeing 99% colonial boxes. On the same note, I could say LA is 99% 1950s post-war boxes that are just a collection of squares inside other squares with no character whatsoever. Oh and don't get me started on my hatred for the dingbat apartment style. 
