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I think there a few factors that would need to happen, but I definitely think it's possible for NJ to turn around. It already sorta is in a way. Look at the development in Hudson County and Newark. If Newark can become a larger job center, it could attract some of the business out of NYC.
Also, while North Jersey is far more expensive than South Jersey, the north always had NYC to rely on for jobs and economy. Philly was in the gutter for a long time, and South Jersey relies on it the same way the north relies on NYC. Now that Philly is improving drastically, I see a lot more opportunity for the southern part of the state. Also AC is building new hotels and many shore towns like Asbury Park are improving. The glory days of suburban living with a large family in the suburbs in NJ are over. But Philly's economy is recovering very well. Newark is on the come up with business moving in and new construction of residential units and commercial properties. Hudson County is reaping the benefits of Hoboken and JC redeveloping, and I know some young people are moving to Union City now too as they're priced out of even the Heights. I know people actually moving to Asbury Park that are not from the area. I know people in the city realizing Asbury Park is a real destination now. I know people from Philly, NYC and north Jersey who are more willing to vacation in AC now with the new hotels and growing nightlife scene there. I think the marijuana legalization plans will help a lot too.
No state with a diverse population, located near massive job centers, with good public education, an educated population, on the ocean, and all that make NJ a great place to live are abundantly affordable.
Really the worst thing NJ has going for it are property taxes. But even though COL is high here, jobs in NYC and Philly pay much better than jobs in more affordable states. Also you pay for what you get. Some people just enjoy and thrive off the culture of the region and the access to NYC and Philly and the shore. Someone mentioned Dallas and Atlanta. Philly and NYC have more culture and diversity in one neighborhood than nearly those entire cities. And both of them are not located an hour away from beaches. And both of them lack any proper public transit. NJT may be failing rn, but it still runs. Neither of them have anything that matches PATH or PATCO. So you really do pay for what you get. If you don't use NYC and Philly to their full advantages, then NJ doesn't seem like the best choice. But for many people, NJ is a good suburban place to live in order to take advantage of all the amenities NYC and Philly offer. That will never change. You can't replicate NYC and Philly in TX, GA, SC, NC, FL, etc.
On your first point, I wholeheartedly agree with you that Jersey City and parts of Newark have seen a tremendous turnaround in recent years, and we should celebrate that. But I also know that Paterson, Camden, Trenton, Irvington, East Orange, Passaic, and the majority of urban areas have not seen similar improvements, nor have they really tried to crack down on crime, improve schools, or attract businesses.
I think you make an excellent point with regards to Philadelphia, and I do agree certain suburbs outside of the city could see some growth as a result of Philadelphia seeing great improvement. However, I think that growth will be limited because once you go a certain distance outside of the city, people will wonder why they should pay to live in New Jersey when they can have a lower mortgage and property taxes on the Pennsylvania side. For much of southern New Jersey, I stand by my comments about rural New Jersey. Building new hotels in AC is fine, but will they diversify their economy in such a way that the entire general area will benefit? That remains to be seen, but so far the answer has been no.
I think you and I fundamentally agree on the benefits of living in New Jersey in terms of culture and diversity. However, there are other places where people have culture, diversity, and a lower cost of living. Certainly, people living in Bucks County, PA or the Westchester area have the best of both worlds, as do people living in parts of North Carolina or the Miami area.
My argument isn't that New Jersey isn't great, it's that we are not as great as we can be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG183
No mention in this thread of how Home Rule impacts property taxes?
Take a look at the size of your municipality's payroll, then look at the size of the individual salaries.
I think services should be shared on a regional or more local basis to save some money, but the main culprit of high property taxes is the school funding formula.
On your first point, I wholeheartedly agree with you that Jersey City and parts of Newark have seen a tremendous turnaround in recent years, and we should celebrate that. But I also know that Paterson, Camden, Trenton, Irvington, East Orange, Passaic, and the majority of urban areas have not seen similar improvements, nor have they really tried to crack down on crime, improve schools, or attract businesses.
I think you make an excellent point with regards to Philadelphia, and I do agree certain suburbs outside of the city could see some growth as a result of Philadelphia seeing great improvement. However, I think that growth will be limited because once you go a certain distance outside of the city, people will wonder why they should pay to live in New Jersey when they can have a lower mortgage and property taxes on the Pennsylvania side. For much of southern New Jersey, I stand by my comments about rural New Jersey. Building new hotels in AC is fine, but will they diversify their economy in such a way that the entire general area will benefit? That remains to be seen, but so far the answer has been no.
I think you and I fundamentally agree on the benefits of living in New Jersey in terms of culture and diversity. However, there are other places where people have culture, diversity, and a lower cost of living. Certainly, people living in Bucks County, PA or the Westchester area have the best of both worlds, as do people living in parts of North Carolina or the Miami area.
My argument isn't that New Jersey isn't great, it's that we are not as great as we can be.
I think services should be shared on a regional or more local basis to save some money, but the main culprit of high property taxes is the school funding formula.
The cities you listed are definitely struggling still. However, Newark's revitalization is pretty new. Even outside of downtown JC, the rest of JC is just finally starting to see a similar influx of people. It will definitely not happen overnight. I also think some urban centers are just doomed, though, and no amount of money can fix them. Paterson is one of those, and Passaic sorta also. I just think Paterson is too far removed from NYC to be an easy commuter destination. While it's bigger than Morristown, it's similarly far away, but Morristown has always been better off. Unless Paterson can showcase itself as a suburban alternative to NYC like Morristown is, it's doomed because of its distance from NYC not making it as attractive as Hudson/Essex/Bergen County cities. Same goes for Passaic.
East Orange and Irvington will have to wait for Newark to become a bigger job/entertainment hub. Same with Elizabeth. Though Elizabeth is already seeing some residential buildings popping up near the NJT station for easy commuting to NYC.
I think as Philly improves, it will affect Camden and Trenton. Trenton's region will be a good commuter zone for couples that have one partner working in NYC and the other in Philly. It could start to be a possibility with Philly's economy improving so much. And as people get priced out of Philly, Camden will become an alternative. However, Philly has a long way to go, with much of North, Northeast, and West Philly still untouched by gentrification. Again, it will take a long time, but the future is there for it. Philly is back and it's not likely it will be going anywhere again.
As for AC, if more hotels continue to get built, more construction workers will be involved in the economy, more employees will be needed to staff the casinos and hotels, and more people will visit the city for vacation. Those staffing the new projects will have to live in the area, some probably settling in the city if they're on the poorer end. Just as Las Vegas wasn't much before, AC isn't right now. However, it has the true bones of a pretty good size city, right on the ocean, with its own airport, and direct train access to one of the largest cities in the country. Though again it'll take a long time, it has the potential, and the investment in new resort properties is a sign of hope. I personally know a lot of people from this part of the country that wish the Northeast had a larger job center on the ocean. I think if AC capitalized on the fact that it's the only major city on the ocean in the Northeast with such infrastructure and layout, it could return. There are other shore towns that are densely packed, but I don't think there are any that have the urban structures that AC does, and they definitely don't have the high rise resorts or airport. The only city that comes to mind that's even close is Asbury Park, which is actually taking off right now. The two could function well as a north and south anchor to a beautiful stretch of beach resorts.
As for commuting from Bucks County, that's a LONG commute to most job centers that not everyone is accepting of. Also, many, if not all, government jobs require you to reside within the government's jurisdiction. Whether that be the State of NJ requiring you to have a permanent residence in NJ or the State of NY requiring the same or the City of NY requiring you to reside within the city or a select few suburban communities in NY state. Buck is not an option for everyone. While some places in the South can come close, there's nothing like going to Arthur Ave, Little Italy or Bay Ridge/Dyker Heights/Bensonhurst for Italian culture, Chinatown or Flushing for Chinese culture, Astoria for Greek, Jackson Heights/Jersey City for Indian, Newark for Brazilian/Portuguese/Spanish, and all the other numerous cultural locations for Koreans, Caribbeans, African Americans, Latinos, etc. And there is not much that compares to a rooftop bar in Manhattan, or a warehouse party in Williamsburg/Bushwick, or the other numerous locations for all types of live music all over the region. NC and Miami might be good suburban places to raise families, but if you enjoy the culturally diverse experiences of NYC (and Philly too), there is just no competition. And to some people, that's not the biggest concern. For them, NJ doesn't make sense. For others, it does.
There is rural New Jersey, a place of great beauty where agriculture once was a thriving industry, but today is losing population thanks to limits on development and younger generations not wanting to run farms.
I (along with quite a few others, I would imagine) am quite happy being "left behind" here in rural New Jersey. We don't want or need anymore development than we already have, and we're quite happy with our school system. We don't need any additional roads, we don't need more access to transit, we don't need box stores, sidewalks, parks, or "walkable downtowns." My property taxes are high just like anyone else's, but I honestly don't give it that much thought. I'm not really sure what direction you want to "turn NJ around" to face or head in, but whenever you do, please don't take us with you
I (along with quite a few others, I would imagine) am quite happy being "left behind" here in rural New Jersey. We don't want or need anymore development than we already have, and we're quite happy with our school system. We don't need any additional roads, we don't need more access to transit, we don't need box stores, sidewalks, parks, or "walkable downtowns." My property taxes are high just like anyone else's, but I honestly don't give it that much thought. I'm not really sure what direction you want to "turn NJ around" to face or head in, but whenever you do, please don't take us with you
He has been like this since Murphy was elected ,he actually speaks for a small minority.
He has been like this since Murphy was elected ,he actually speaks for a small minority.
You've repeatedly made your points in this thread alone regarding the OP's dislike for Murphy.
Where do you see the need for serious change or reform to make NJ what it could be other than being close to NYC and Philly and living off of those benefits?
We're not the only state with good schools and diversity (whatever that means).
You've repeatedly made your points in this thread alone regarding the OP's dislike for Murphy.
Where do you see the need for serious change or reform to make NJ what it could be other than being close to NYC and Philly and living off of those benefits?
We're not the only state with good schools and diversity (whatever that means).
There have been many, many governors from both parties all of whom have failed to solve the issues. To try to blame Murphy for the state of NJ (no pun intended) is nothing more than partisanship for the sake of partisanship.
You've repeatedly made your points in this thread alone regarding the OP's dislike for Murphy.
Where do you see the need for serious change or reform to make NJ what it could be other than being close to NYC and Philly and living off of those benefits?
We're not the only state with good schools and diversity (whatever that means).
I think the State it's self needs to rewrite it's tax code. I honestly think the middle and lower class's in the state pay to much of the burden and the the top 5% and corporations don't pay enough . By doing so will some companies leave maybe but with Port Newark, the Turnpike and New York City and yes Philly. New Jersey residents have always lived off of the benefits of it's proximity to NYC and Philly and it's location on the Eastern seaboard there will always be jobs and people working in NJ as someone else pointed people will come and go .A company leaves and one opens up .New Jersey is still one of the largest suppliers of Produce on the Eastern side of the country,I think NJ should help the Farmers in the state more and help that industry .
There have been many, many governors from both parties all of whom have failed to solve the issues. To try to blame Murphy for the state of NJ (no pun intended) is nothing more than partisanship for the sake of partisanship.
There have been many, many governors from both parties all of whom have failed to solve the issues. To try to blame Murphy for the state of NJ (no pun intended) is nothing more than partisanship for the sake of partisanship.
I agree. The state of the state is the fault of the voters, IMO.
How many things were the result of activist courts with the legislature (those that should be writing the laws and dictating policies that affect all NJ'ians) allowing it to happen?
Remember the six billion or so blown on the School Construction boondoggle?
The politically connected who could, up until recently, have multiple jobs (some even no-shows), paychecks and pensions.
How in heaven's name were those two instances alone allowed to even happen here in NJ.
We're not some political backwater are we?
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