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Alot of people are saying that as long as everyone takes the same test, it's a fair system.
Oh my God! That's like saying, "Well, if you run in a race with Usain Bolt and lose it was a fair race because basically both of you had the same chance to win."
No. Usain Bolt has been running his whole life and I never run.
Asian and White students are better prepared before this test happens, obviously. And I don't think we can blame parents. I think we need to dig deeper.
What about economics? What about racism? There;s no racism in this society? Poor kids can compete effectively with wealthier kids?
Or if you say, "Well, you know, Asian parents are poor too and their kids get into Stuyvesant..." I would say that those Asian parents were not subjected to the same type of racism as black and latinos in the USA.
Please, just because everyone takes the same test doesn't mean it's a fair system.
Nope. Asians tend to come from backgrounds that highly value education, so it's no surprise that they are the majority in these schools.
There's probably more Asians going to Bronx High School of Science then Asians actually living in The Bronx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkomatic
Everyone who wants into these specialized High Schools takes the same test correct? If White or Asian students take one version of the test and African American students take another version then yes, this would be racist.
I think the problem here is that unfortunately many African American students do not receive a decent education from the public school system up to the point that they take these tests--that's a separate issue.
In my opinion, its wrong to alter or lower the standards for one racial group in order to make a school more diverse--that does those students a disservice. Instead, we should tackle the hard problem which no one ever wants to do. That is, to try and raise the proficiency level of those students who are lagging behind.
Its actually quite dispiriting how so many posters here on the CD forum relapse into simple-minded parent-bashing whenever the topic of education comes up. And strangely enough you know who they seem to be? TEACHERS, ADMINISTRATORS AND PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS!
Conincidence? I think not. I've said on many previous posts that EVERYONE has a part to play in fixing up NYC's screwed up school system. I don't excuse parents' or kids' bad behaviour ever. But so many here just fall back into the quick and easy thing that it's all the parents fault. Never theirs. Never the DOEs. Never the politicians. Never the administrators or principals. Come on now. We know that is not realistic. And professional educators should know it better than most. The system IS broken.
I reiterate what I posted earlier. New York City is the ONLY big city in the country that admits students to its elite high schools solely on the basis of one high-stakes test. That is flat out wrong, stupid and narrow. It is perfectly possible to use additional metrics beside "the test" to find kids smart enough to benefit from high-level learning and also have a more diversified student body--which I believe is a legitimate interest. Other cities do it all the time. So do the states that hve special math/science schools like North carolina or Illinois. But its a lot easier blaming us irresponsible parents for raising lazy kids than it is pressuring the system to revise Hecht-Calandra, the state law that imposes the test as sole entry criteria.
I'm sorry so many of you out there have decided to take the easy way out.
Last edited by citylove101; 10-26-2011 at 05:14 PM..
The test in it of itself is not racist. Neither is the school per se. But to expect some kid from the hood to have just as good a shot to do well on the test as a kid who went to a much better school is bogus. I don't think it's totally fair the test is the main factor to getting in. The test should be part of it yeah but not the main thing.
Ok just to reiterate common themes so I don't repeat what everyone is saying:
- The racial distribution amongst students in our specialized HS is not proportional to the race demographics of the taxpayers contributing to these schools (OP's thesis)
- Same test so this is fair
- Same test but students come from different backgrounds (parenting got a fair mention), some of which makes it a disadvantage for them
- Other considerations are not taken into account that leave out a lot of potential exceptional students (particularly of the under-represented minorities)
- Chinese students excel because of strict parenting and due diligence (whether it may be forced or not)
Here is my 2 cents on this issue:
- Any issue involving education in this city is COMPLICATED.
First, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of regulations and other bureaucratic BS that goes in and out of the Board of Ed that restrict this or mandates that which is OFTEN counterproductive to improving the education system.
- Of course we can zoom into any one factor and say "THAT is the problem" but we often forget that everything is interconnected. Example: a theme here is that the Black/Hispanic parents don't push their children as hard to prepare them for these tests. Sure, that is ONE factor. But, why don't they do that? For some it's because they don't have the time (b/c they are working day and night just to make ends meet). Others because they are single parent and are just overstressed as it is. Now again, why are those conditions the way they are? (Some parents don't have the skills to work decent paying jobs, have backgrounds, etc.) This line of reasoning can be repeated again and again and we still won't come up with a single answer...so IT IS NOT JUST ONE FACTOR.
- Standardized testing are fair and unfair. Why it's fair: 1. theoretically, with diligence, most people can pick up a book and with enough time, can master the material, 2. Everyone is taking the SAME test. Why it is unfair: 1. emphasis on the word "theoretically" in the last sentence. 2. does not take into account factors outside the test (literally and figuratively)
- Why standardized testing is used for specialized HS: it's the quickest and cheapest way, without any grey area.
- It's not a matter of "is the test fair," so much as a question of "does everyone have the same opportunity in preparing for this test" - which points to our crumbling education system....
Alot of people are saying that as long as everyone takes the same test, it's a fair system.
Oh my God! That's like saying, "Well, if you run in a race with Usain Bolt and lose it was a fair race because basically both of you had the same chance to win."
No. Usain Bolt has been running his whole life and I never run.
Asian and White students are better prepared before this test happens, obviously. And I don't think we can blame parents. I think we need to dig deeper.
What about economics? What about racism? There;s no racism in this society? Poor kids can compete effectively with wealthier kids?
Or if you say, "Well, you know, Asian parents are poor too and their kids get into Stuyvesant..." I would say that those Asian parents were not subjected to the same type of racism as black and latinos in the USA.
Please, just because everyone takes the same test doesn't mean it's a fair system.
It's a cultural thing with Asians. It's just not a good comparison. It's apples and oranges. It's not really about racism. Asians go through racism too. It's just their culture places a much higher value on obedience, respect of elders, disclipine, etc, etc. These things studies have shown give them an advantage in an academic setting.
Its actually quite dispiriting how so many posters here on the CD forum relapse into simple-minded parent-bashing whenever the topic of education comes up. And strangely enough you know who they seem to be? TEACHERS, ADMINISTRATORS AND PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS!
Conincidence? I think not. I've said on many previous posts that EVERYONE has a part to play in fixing up NYC's screwed up school system. But so many here just fall back into the quick and easy thing that it's all the parents fault. Never theirs. Never the DOEs. Never the politicians. Never the administrators or principals. Come on now. We know that is not realistic. And professional educators should know it better than most. They system IS broken.
I reiterate what I posted earlier. New York City is the ONLY big city in the country that admits students to its elite high schools solely on the basis of one high-stakes test. That is flat out wrong, stupid and narrow. It is perfectly possible to use additional metrics beside "the test" to find kids smart enough to benefit from high-level learning and also have a more diversified student body--which I believe is a legitimate interest. Other cities do it all the time. So do the states that hve special math/science schools like North carolina or Illinois. But its a lot easier blaming us irresponsible parents for raising lazy kids than it is pressuring the system to revise Hecht-Calandra, the state law that imposes the stest as sole entry criteria.
I'm sorry so many of you out there have decided to take the easy way out.
The title of the thread is " do we think the the specialized high schools are racist ? " The OP did not ask if people thought there might be ways to improve anything or what we thought of the DOE,politicians,principals,teachers etc.The premise was that "the specialized system is geared to separate students based on race." It is a very specific CHARGE.Most of us gave our response to that issue.
You have valid points about other problems with the NYC DOE that most of us would probably agree with but they have nothing to do with the question of whether the entrance to specialized high schools is inherently racist.Obviously,most of us think not.
... NYC isn't trying to purposelly keep balck and Latino kids out of these schools. But it has set up a system that effectively does that under the guise of "objectivity." ... .
^^I responded quite explicitly to OP's original question about racism in the specialized high schools. But explaining that answer and looking at subsequent posts led me to say more. What's wrong with that?
There are other environmental factors at work also. Some posters mentioned Carbbean Blacks, you can also add children of African immigrants to this as well to this as well as Asian and European immigrants
Some own their own homes or live in apts with others that are similar to them culturally. They only allow their children to associate with others that are similar. Many are also like the Asians educated in their own countries to a certain extent, sometimes they don't have college educations, but some are taught up to the 3rd level of calculus in high school.
I saw a documentary on math and science taught in poor countries around the world. They showed high schoolers in tents in other parts of the world, 10th graders studying discrete algebra at the level of a 2nd year engineering student in the US. They are very poor.
Most of the CUNY College professors of math and science courses come from these types of places around the world. They all say that when they come to the US they are way ahead of us in Math and Science, they just have to learn english when they get here. They breeze through the college level math and science courses.
There many immigrants working crappy jobs in the city that have the knowledge and skills that are ahead of our students. Most immigrants with those skills tell their children do it the way the teacher explains it in class, and we will show you a better way at home, or at those Saturday classes.
I mentioned in another thread how many of these parents will stay up with the child until 2 or 3 o'clock AM with them while the child studies. They will do this until the child graduates from HS.
All the families they associate with do the same thing.
Most people in the US, Black White or whatever that have been here for some generations are not doing that. Poster keep mentioning the Black children, I don't see any Whites going to Stuyvesant in the morning either.
I can remember 15 years ago you did see a lot of White teens, and some Black teens, now you don't see any. I'm sure there are some, but they must very few and far between.
These teenagers earned their places there. There are many good kids from good families, that are studying hard, they just don't have access to the same information and it has to start from kindergarten not at HS. You see it all the time, on the news. Teens proud to have finished HS and the hard working families all around all of them proud. But the young person goes to college and can't keep up. Is that the parents fault? Because the parent didn't have the knowledge and skills to provide more than the schools could give.
Not everyone can go to a specialized high school. Not everyone can go to a performing arts HS. but people that worked hard to earn good grades with parents that are supportive and caring should not be failing miserably when they go to college. Something is wrong somewhere and pointing fingers won't fix it.
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