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i already wrote that in my prev reply that the white flight also moved to long island you klutz.
"nope. middle class/upper middle class professionals working in posh midtown offices escaped brooklyn, and downtown manhattan to move up north to harlem and the bronx in the 1910's-1920's up to the 1960's. hence the gatsby-esque architectural design up there. after harlem and bronx began reflecting socioeconomic downturn in the 60's, the white flight moved to hamptons long island, upstate towards stamford, connecticut and west to bergen county, nj all of which are the land of the suburban mansion."
i'm sure the marginally prosperous working class also took a shortcut to long island, staten island and kearney/secaucus nj but that's years after the great white flight of the 1910-1920's.
Odd that they would have built so many houses in Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island from 1910 - 1940. Houses today that are so much nicer than having an apartment in the Bronx.
Odd that they would have built so many houses in Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island from 1910 - 1940. Houses today that are so much nicer than having an apartment in the Bronx.
90% of brooklyn were tenement row housing in that era. brooklyn would be one of the locations for a film made about the INDUSTRIAL ERA. there isn't much prewar architecture in brooklyn, as the the ghetto tenements were mowed down a few decades later to build bungalow type townhomes and brown rectangle apts in the projects to house the working class who remained after the great white flight of the middle and upper middle class. brooklyn was predominantly a working class and ghetto borough from the 1920's up to the 1990's. prior to that were the wasps, and earlier immigrants, the germans and the dutch.
the brownstones on the nw shoreline were upper middle class wasp manhattan commuters. they jumped ship in the 1910's-1920's when mass european immigration arrived. vast majority in brooklyn back in the 1910-1940's were wave of new euro immigrants escaping poverty and persecution and black working class factory workers and they defined the industrial era, living and working in harsh environments described in upton sinclair's "the jungle". the only positive remnants of brooklyn architecture resides in the former commuter neighborhoods of the northwest, the former vestiges of waspy residences, representing <5% of all of brooklyn. you have absolutely no clue.
Last edited by ControlJohnsons; 09-05-2015 at 11:32 AM..
Odd that they would have built so many houses in Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island from 1910 - 1940. Houses today that are so much nicer than having an apartment in the Bronx.
i don't think you understand. brooklyn was always a poverty/working class borough after 1910-1920. some brilliant developer in the 90's decided it wasn't anymore, with a large bag of lipstick.
to argue otherwise, shows your dense bias for something you wish to exist today with a complete lack of historical knowledge.
Odd that they would have built so many houses in Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island from 1910 - 1940. Houses today that are so much nicer than having an apartment in the Bronx.
you have never been to the bronx and your ignorance shows. i am not comparing the conditions as they are today. you seem to be forgetting that. bronx has far superior existing infrastructure to gentrify and reno, superior building structures, grid design, and mass transportation compared to brooklyn and i am writing on this forum to discuss the vast potential of the south bronx going forward. as far as why existing architecture is important, which you seem to have trouble understanding, imagine if park ave was a line of cookie cutter condos, that's how it matters. manhattan is what it is in large part due to it's architecture. or imagine if someone tried to gentrify irvington nj and all of it's chemical factories. if the residential structures don't exist yet, you need to build them from new. south bronx is lined with priceless pre-war structures that couldn't be built today at any budget. they can however be reno'ed, and why the RE developers are now going in with billions in cash outlays.
as far as brooklyn is concerned, you will see graffiti everywhere, especially williamsburg. walk down metropolitan ave, it's graffiti everywhere, and garbage all over the place. weeds growing out of huge cracks in the sidewalk. you don't see this in south bronx. and there is as much violent crime and rape in the gentrified sections of brooklyn. the only difference is you see more white faces around who share in the crime committed. some people much rather be mugged by a white guy.
Last edited by ControlJohnsons; 09-05-2015 at 11:50 AM..
actually no. the bones of pre war art deco construction is monstrous steel beam, and poured concrete slab walls and flooring. the bones of the buildings are far superior to anything going up today. you don't hear your neighbors through the walls in one of these unlike the cheap sheetrock crap they've built the past 50 years.
those buildings are developer's wet dreams.
I said GUTTED, nothing to do with structure. All to do with damage to the old details, like moldings, fireplaces etc. thats what buyers want old details, reason why Brownstones are going for millions in not so good areas. Developers are not going to save these details in a large building that has been neglecting for decades, when the elevator needs to be fixes, plumbing, gas, electricity will have to be all reconfigured. Same situation in Brooklyn, many of the old buildings are getting the generic renovation, luckily the housing stock in brooklyn is more houses then buildings.
bronx will be gentrified no doubt about it, simply because no one can afford to live in Manhattan. The issue with the Bronx is it will have to have the amenities before the people unlike Brooklyn which attracted the people before the amenities. people wanted to get away from the hustle and bustle of manhattan, they wanted a home that felt like home, a garden, a yard. Thats why people moved to brooklyn, not just the close proximity to manhattan. That is why brooklyn is being gentrified way pass the close threshold to manhattan and deeper in. When people started moving in, thats when we seen new bars, stores, restaurants popping up. The Bronx needs the reverse, the public needs to be educated on why they should move there it needs to be rebranded like Brooklyn was. The Bronx will be gentrified in its own way, just not the same way a large majority Brooklyn has. And thats a good thing maybe it will maintain the real NY vibe, Brooklyn has lost and the affordability.
I said GUTTED, nothing to do with structure. All to do with damage to the old details, like moldings, fireplaces etc. thats what buyers want old details, reason why Brownstones are going for millions in not so good areas. Developers are not going to save these details in a large building that has been neglecting for decades, when the elevator needs to be fixes, plumbing, gas, electricity will have to be all reconfigured. Same situation in Brooklyn, many of the old buildings are getting the generic renovation, luckily the housing stock in brooklyn is more houses then buildings.
no, first of all, you wrote the only thing that may remain in bronx buildings is "the outside details". that is completely incorrect. in architecture, the foundation and structure materials and process is 90% of the game. you can not renovate by adding massive steel beam into a building that doesn't have that nor can you you pour industrial grade concrete to create walls and floors after the fact, nor can you add limestone due to costs and foundation requirements needed to hold such weight, and this the vast majority of bronx architecture is built on this type of construction. pre war art deco was built to last centuries. and fyi, gut renovations are superficial changes. they don't extend past the "guts", which is the structure as outlined above. anyone can do this to any p.o.s. gut reno. however, you cannot restructure a building, you'd have to tear it down and build new.
you obviously are not aware of the fact that many buildings in the south bronx are in fact going through external restorations of old art deco detailing, from limestone adornments to large lobby mosaics. your assumption that developers who are piling in billions are not going to save exterior detailing knowing well that is one of the biggest selling points of the bulidings is completely illogical.
you are making assumptions on things you don't know.
bronx will be gentrified no doubt about it, simply because no one can afford to live in Manhattan. The issue with the Bronx is it will have to have the amenities before the people unlike Brooklyn which attracted the people before the amenities. people wanted to get away from the hustle and bustle of manhattan, they wanted a home that felt like home, a garden, a yard. Thats why people moved to brooklyn, not just the close proximity to manhattan. That is why brooklyn is being gentrified way pass the close threshold to manhattan and deeper in. When people started moving in, thats when we seen new bars, stores, restaurants popping up. The Bronx needs the reverse, the public needs to be educated on why they should move there it needs to be rebranded like Brooklyn was. The Bronx will be gentrified in its own way, just not the same way a large majority Brooklyn has. And thats a good thing maybe it will maintain the real NY vibe, Brooklyn has lost and the affordability.
south bronx from 138th up to the low 170's will have unique neighborhoods. it won't be one size fit all area for one specific demographic. obviuosly, some blocks will cost alot more than others, have greater amenities, etc.. that's how it goes.
this has already been done and is being done in harlem. south harlem is beautiful. hundreds of harlem brownstones have been reno'ed to original form, and prices have skyrocketed. certain areas of harlem will go for less, depending on neighborhood. same goes for any area in nyc.
i completely disagree with what you wrote about what people want. there as a vast population who do not want to move to a burb like setting, live in a bungalow, and find that little bit of suburb life in brooklyn, and instead want a lower priced straight up doorman urban option close to midtown. why else do you think millionaires and billionaires live in places such as park ave and lexington. not everyone wants a white fence and lawn.
and the bronx is not a far reach outside of manhattan, as i posted even from 168th, yankees stadium it's a 19 minute subway ride to 42nd. it takes me twice as long from soho to get wait for a slow 6 train to get to midtown.
the only reason the other boroughs gentrified before harlem and bronx, as i wrote in a previous post is for the politically incorrect truth that harlem and south bronx have large african american population. that is the only reason.
Last edited by ControlJohnsons; 09-05-2015 at 01:02 PM..
no, first of all, you wrote the only thing that may remain in bronx buildings is "the outside details". that is completely incorrect. in architecture, the foundation and structure materials and process is 90% of the game. you can not renovate by adding massive steel beam into a building that doesn't have that nor can you you pour industrial grade concrete to create walls and floors after the fact, nor can you add limestone due to costs and foundation requirements needed to hold such weight, and this the vast majority of bronx architecture is built on this type of construction. pre war art deco was built to last centuries. and fyi, gut renovations are superficial changes. they don't extend past the "guts", which is the structure as outlined above. anyone can do this to any p.o.s. gut reno. however, you cannot restructure a building, you'd have to tear it down and build new.
you obviously are not aware of the fact that many buildings in the south bronx are in fact going through external restorations of old art deco detailing, from limestone adornments to large lobby mosaics. your assumption that developers who are piling in billions are not going to save exterior detailing knowing well that is one of the biggest selling points of the bulidings is completely illogical.
you are making assumptions on things you don't know.
Outside details, superficial details meaning what people can see. The person renting don't care if the building has a steel beem.
Im making assumptions of what is already coming to pass in Brooklyn. Gentrification and developers are the same cycle overtime. Its all about the dollars for developers, they will save details if they have enough to fix the basics. People don't want small, slow moving elevators. They want modern and old mixed in. They aren't going to pay for original moldings when the elevator won't work because it needs to be completely replaced and upgraded. or pay the premium without have central air. At the end of the day Brooklyn nor Bronx is Manhattan, that can get away with substandard living conditions and still attract good clientele renting for a market rate price.
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