Dominicans are just taking over the Bronx not immigrating. (Cambridge: crime, construction)
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The US born kids of these immigrants will actually have it easier. As US citizens, if they get fired from a job they can get unemployment. .
US born kids commit crime at higher rates than do their parents. This is a statistical fact, and true for almost any immigrant group that you can pick. Some US born do graduate college, but most don't, as in fact being true most groups (including native whites), with the exception of Indians and Nigerians.
Those kids aren't going to tolerate the working conditions that their parents will, so often crime becomes more attractive. Or exploiting the social support systems. They don't have the "grin and bear it, better must come" mentality of their immigrant parents. Most importantly while their father (unless he is a naturalized US citizen) cam be deported for jumping a turnstile, they cannot be. So the temptation to break the law is greater.
So while a portion of the US born kids of the immigrant cohort do better, as they are better educated, more knowledgeable of the system, and have stronger networks, many others will not as they will not go to college.
Also I wasn't aware people didn't consider Anglophone Caribbean dialects to not be English. I work with a lot of Caribbeans, and even when they speak to their family members on the phone it's obviously English they're speaking.
In fact immigrants from the Anglo Caribbean are slightly less educated than the average immigrant, yet have higher median household incomes and home ownership. Two factors explain this. Their native language is English, and their females have levels of labor force participation only slightly below the males.
While Caribbean people do speak a variety of creoles, even in the Caribbean itself competence in standard English is a requirement for any occupation where there is an expectation of upward mobility.
Some West Indians instead of say her dog or his car will say she dog or he car. You cannot do this in the English of the white countries, ).
And you cannot do this in the Caribbean either if you wish to achieve upward mobility.
Go to a hotel in the Caribbean and the waitress, and even the maids can speak standard English to the guests. This mightn't be true on a construction site, but then it isn't on NYC sites either, where a more blue collar type of English is spoken.
I think a problem that you have is that you don't understand that Caribbean people are multi-dialectic. Their speech repertoire spans at least 3 levels, often changing mid sentence. Just because you hear them say "Ah tell she" doesn't mean that they don't know that in standard English it is "I told her".
Have you been to the English speaking Caribbean?
In fact people from the Anglophone Caribbean have no more issues with speaking standard English than do African Americans.
Jamaican patois is very different from Jamaican English.
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And the vast majority of Jamaicans who make it to NYC are quite capable of speaking both. They do so in a continuum. I suspect few NYers in 2016 have a problem understanding Jamaican English.
You will NOT hear the preacher using dialect during his sermon, unless it is to make a point, or inject humor.
Jamaican Patois is actually an officially recognized language by the federal gov't. They have paid translators on retainer to assist in the translation of the language. Jamaican Patois speakers in a number of agencies are paid extra for speaking the language.
You actually get paid more the deeper your accent and the worse your dialect lol.
Some one has worked out a nice scam. I have never met a Jamaican who doesn't understand American English. The issue will more be the American who mightn't understand a deep (mesolect) creole speaker attempting to speak what they think is standard English.
Turn on the TV in Jamaica and you will think that you are in the USA. There is very heavy penetration of the media by the USA, and since the arrival of social media and smart phones this has become even more intense. T
Jamaican Patois is actually an officially recognized language by the federal gov't. They have paid translators on retainer to assist in the translation of the language. Jamaican Patois speakers in a number of agencies are paid extra for speaking the language.
You actually get paid more the deeper your accent and the worse your dialect lol.
I didn't know that the US government recognized it as such but I would not be surprised because it's needed for official and legal purposes. Who certifies these translators? I would want to become one. It's funny that the Jamaican government and my fellow country men haven't granted patois official status.
Can someone tell me what is Jamaican English? We might talk with an accent but we are taught and tested in standard British English all throughout school and generally speak patois outside of it except in most professional settings. I have yet to meet a Jamaican who doesn't speak English (Tainos and Arawaks are extinct there) unlike meeting many Haitian Creole speakers in the US who don't speak French.
and caribny is correct, Jamaican culture is influenced by the US.
US born kids commit crime at higher rates than do their parents. This is a statistical fact, and true for almost any immigrant group that you can pick. Some US born do graduate college, but most don't, as in fact being true most groups (including native whites), with the exception of Indians and Nigerians.
Those kids aren't going to tolerate the working conditions that their parents will, so often crime becomes more attractive. Or exploiting the social support systems. They don't have the "grin and bear it, better must come" mentality of their immigrant parents. Most importantly while their father (unless he is a naturalized US citizen) cam be deported for jumping a turnstile, they cannot be. So the temptation to break the law is greater.
So while a portion of the US born kids of the immigrant cohort do better, as they are better educated, more knowledgeable of the system, and have stronger networks, many others will not as they will not go to college.
Most immigrants do not have degrees or go to college.
I think you're seeing immigrants from your own experience as an Anglo Caribbean person, and while what you said may or may not be true of Anglo Caribbean immigrants, it DEFINITELY isn't true of Asian immigrants, whose children are pretty well represented in colleges and who do pretty well professionally. US born Asians also don't have commit crimes in large numbers. Unless you're dealing with wealthy, well educated people, the parents have extremely poor English language skills and this often hinders them for life. Poor immigrants who work long hours tend not to have the time to properly study English.
As for Latino immigrants, being that their parents don't speak English but the kids do they simply have much greater job opportunities, with or without an education.
Back to Anglo Caribbean immigrants, the problem with them is many who considered themselves middle class upon arriving to NYC and facing discrimination in the housing market, had to move to African American neighborhoods, which were often extremely impoverished. Many of their kids grew up in THAT environment, and of course there were definitely issues there. AA neighborhoods were often far less likely to get good teachers, and as for as those who have a poor education, those of us who work in education often call that the school to prison pipeline. In short Anglo Caribbean immigrants up until the 90s faced the full brunt of segregation in the housing and the job market here, and that certainly affected their children. Things maybe different for the children of more recent Anglo Caribbean immigrants, now that enforcement of the fair housing market doesn't force people to live in neighborhoods due to race, and now that a combination of gentrification and non Black immigration means that NYC has few all Black neighborhoods left.
Last edited by NyWriterdude; 09-20-2016 at 05:44 AM..
And you cannot do this in the Caribbean either if you wish to achieve upward mobility.
Go to a hotel in the Caribbean and the waitress, and even the maids can speak standard English to the guests. This mightn't be true on a construction site, but then it isn't on NYC sites either, where a more blue collar type of English is spoken.
I think a problem that you have is that you don't understand that Caribbean people are multi-dialectic. Their speech repertoire spans at least 3 levels, often changing mid sentence. Just because you hear them say "Ah tell she" doesn't mean that they don't know that in standard English it is "I told her".
Have you been to the English speaking Caribbean?
In fact people from the Anglophone Caribbean have no more issues with speaking standard English than do African Americans.
Those in the field of language instruction would indeed say that many (not all) African Americans have trouble with what is considered standard English in the US, and that effects their performance in school, their writing, and even their standardized test taking. AAE varies from place to place and not all AAs speak it, but those that do speak it have historically had a hard time in the educational system.
Some one has worked out a nice scam. I have never met a Jamaican who doesn't understand American English. The issue will more be the American who mightn't understand a deep (mesolect) creole speaker attempting to speak what they think is standard English.
Turn on the TV in Jamaica and you will think that you are in the USA. There is very heavy penetration of the media by the USA, and since the arrival of social media and smart phones this has become even more intense. T
That might be why they have the translators. If a speaker of Jamaican Creole cannot make himself understood to an American in a government office where he needs to do essential business, there's an issue there.
Similarly there definitely issues with that in the educational system.
l1995 and you do have a point though. As a Jamaican, most of us just consider it a dialect and not a separate language. A well-known Jamaican poet and national figure, Dr. Louise Bennett-Coverley, was pushing for patois to be recognized as an official language of Jamaica, distinct from English. This never gained widespread support amongst the populace. Recently, several intellectuals at the University of West Indies (notably Dr. Carolyn Cooper) have renewed the push but without traction. I think it could be considered a language though but Jamaicans have more practical, pressing concerns such as our IMF debt, economy and one of the highest crime rate in the world.
I could never understand the connection between Haitian Creole and French as opposed to the connection between Jamaican patios and our British English in JA. I studied intensive French for 7 straight years in Jamaica, with 4 of those years being at the Intermediate to Advanced level (with oral and written exams) and I could never really understand Haitian Creole. On the other hand, spoken and written Jamaican patois has many similarities with British English that many Europeans, Japanese, Indians and other groups that visit or study the culture can quickly grasp it. Perhaps, this might have more to do with the spread of Jamaican culture worldwide and less with the similarity of the dialect to British English. Either way, it is the first that I have heard that there is widespread agreement amongst linguists that Jamaican patois is considered a language in itself.
The term dialect among linguists and academics is now considered derogatory, as is calling certain languages or forms of languages "bad" or "good or "correct" and it even has offensive connotations, even racial connotations. Saying that white British or white American English is correct is a polite way of saying that White people are superior and that all they do is better and that everyone should aspire to be like this. It also says that everything Black people do in terms of language and culture is inferior.
Many colonized people have ingrained issues of inferiority. Fixing issues such as a bad economy or high crime is impossible if people think poorly of themselves, and those pushing to give Jamaican Patois official status are aware of that.
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