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Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,522 posts, read 2,242,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psi2007
When I was growing up I was taught by teachers that NYC was a melting pot. People came here from other countries, enjoyed learning in our free public schools, contributed their skills and talents, and became a part of the American fabric. All I see now are Dominicans who come here, remain isolated in their Dominican social lives, take over apartment buildings and discriminate against non-Dominicans in renting, REFUSE to learn English and still are allowed to open businesses (to cater to their own countrymen). They are not immigrants in the American way. They come to keep their language and customs and take, take, take U.S. benefits. I was born and raised in the Morrisania area of the Bronx. I left for years while in the military. I come back to the Dominican Republic and overcrowding. If the D.R. is that bad...sorry. I can see why with the attitudes of this group. Come here and contribute. Learn English. Don't come here to take over our neighborhoods and supermarkets, stuff into our public transportation and oh yeah think you're better than American born citizens. Mexicans don't do this. They come and contribute and work hard IMO. Trump should build a wall between NYC and the Dominican Republic. What the Hell!
GTFOH...A melting pot in its truest essence will blend the flavors of all the ingredients inside. They all should not taste the same. You should be able to bask in the flavor profile of all ingredients. You sir, sound like a typical gentrifier...you celebrate the fact that its a melting pot, but only one in which the flavors suit your taste buds. Sorry....
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,522 posts, read 2,242,785 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
There have been changes in both welfare and in on the legal standards of drugs, and stop and frisked has been ruled unconstitutional. So by the time you have sizable populations of third generation Dominicans, the nation and NYC won't be the same place.
The new Dominican arrivals do not face the same discrimination Puerto Rican arrivals faced in the 50s and 60s when the civil rights act, fair housing act, etc all had not been passed. Today one can easily get services and legal help in Spanish, something that prior generations of recent Spanish speaking arrivals didn't always have.
It's not really fair to compare the two.
With that said if you go to the DR, I wouldn't call the island crime free. Far from it, so I don't know why you want to stereotype recent immigrants as goodie two shoes. Dominican government doesn't go after stuff like drugs and prostitution, and yes many recent immigrants are involved in those things. In fact mention you are going to the DR and many Dominicans will safe it's unsafe.
I actually agree with your synopsis herein....well said.
There is still a lot of poverty in China, I'm guessing the Chinese immigrants to NYC span from very poor to very wealthy.
Also I wasn't aware people didn't consider Anglophone Caribbean dialects to not be English. I work with a lot of Caribbeans, and even when they speak to their family members on the phone it's obviously English they're speaking.
There are major grammatical and sometimes word choice differences between the languages of the Anglo Caribbean and the languages of white English speaking countries.
Some West Indians instead of say her dog or his car will say she dog or he car. You cannot do this in the English of the white countries, and this causes issues within the educational system in the US with some Anglo Caribbean people. Also these grammatical and word choice differences often make it into the written work of students in the classroom, and if they do the students maybe penalized harshly.
As for China you are quite correct in that there is still a lot of poverty in China, and a poor Chinese immigrant is likely to be poorly educated in Chinese and isn't that likely to learn English that well. In this case the US born children who will speak English natively are able to attain much higher levels of education and/or professional success than their parents.
I think CaribNY is a well off Anglophone immigrant, and tends to assume what's true of well off Anglophone immigrants is true of the majority of immigrant to the US (and the majority do not come from Anglophone countries).
There are major grammatical and sometimes word choice differences between the languages of the Anglo Caribbean and the languages of white English speaking countries.
Some West Indians instead of say her dog or his car will say she dog or he car. You cannot do this in the English of the white countries, and this causes issues within the educational system in the US with some Anglo Caribbean people. Also these grammatical and word choice differences often make it into the written work of students in the classroom, and if they do the students maybe penalized harshly.
As for China you are quite correct in that there is still a lot of poverty in China, and a poor Chinese immigrant is likely to be poorly educated in Chinese and isn't that likely to learn English that well. In this case the US born children who will speak English natively are able to attain much higher levels of education and/or professional success than their parents.
I think CaribNY is a well off Anglophone immigrant, and tends to assume what's true of well off Anglophone immigrants is true of the majority of immigrant to the US (and the majority do not come from Anglophone countries).
I understand it's not considered "correct" English necessarily, but it is a dialect of English rather than a different language.
I understand it's not considered "correct" English necessarily, but it is a dialect of English rather than a different language.
The Creole languages (English or other European based by heavily influenced by African languages) are considered by experts in the field separate languages than English. They aren't referred to as dialects or "bad" English, but entirely different languages. Various islands have different names for their creoles. Similarly Haitian Creole is a different language from French, though the official language of Haiti is French.
So you can't say it's not correct ENGLISH, it is a different language from what white people in white majority countries would speak. And for those people from these nations that aren't well educated, they essentially have to learn another language to be functional in the US or UK.
And not all Creole speakers can make themselves easily understood to English speaking people with no background in Creole.
The Creole languages (English or other European based by heavily influenced by African languages) are considered by experts in the field separate languages than English. They aren't referred to as dialects or "bad" English, but entirely different languages. Various islands have different names for their creoles. Similarly Haitian Creole is a different language from French, though the official language of Haiti is French.
So you can't say it's not correct ENGLISH, it is a different language from what white people in white majority countries would speak. And for those people from these nations that aren't well educated, they essentially have to learn another language to be functional in the US or UK.
And not all Creole speakers can make themselves easily understood to English speaking people with no background in Creole.
This is very true. The system wont let me rep you. I'm no linguist, but Spanish, French and English colonies that were populated by former African slaves tend to have plenty of African influenced syntax, or words influenced from African meanings. Sometimes these words are mixed in with main language of the colony.
Here is a video that explains creole and pidgin languages. I remember I met a Guyanese woman and she had to take remedial English. Why? Because her English was bad and her English was heavy influenced from Asian Indian syntax of Guyana.
The Creole languages (English or other European based by heavily influenced by African languages) are considered by experts in the field separate languages than English. They aren't referred to as dialects or "bad" English, but entirely different languages. Various islands have different names for their creoles. Similarly Haitian Creole is a different language from French, though the official language of Haiti is French.
So you can't say it's not correct ENGLISH, it is a different language from what white people in white majority countries would speak. And for those people from these nations that aren't well educated, they essentially have to learn another language to be functional in the US or UK.
And not all Creole speakers can make themselves easily understood to English speaking people with no background in Creole.
Haitian Creole is not mutualltintelligible with French, and is considered its own language, while Jamaican English is mutually intelligible with conventional English.
Anyone who's fluent in English can figure out most of the differences in Jamaican English, therefore it's not really a distinct language in my opinion. I'm sure there's no consensus among linguists about this either.
Haitian Creole is not mutualltintelligible with French, and is considered its own language, while Jamaican English is mutually intelligible with conventional English.
Anyone who's fluent in English can figure out most of the differences in Jamaican English, therefore it's not really a distinct language in my opinion. I'm sure there's no consensus among linguists about this either.
Jamaican patois is very different from Jamaican English.
Stop trying to make arguments on things you have no education or personal experience on. I doubt you even have a degree, while ESL and ELA instruction is what I do PROFESSIONALLY!
Just because you understood your Jamaican friends in NYC DOES NOT MEAN that many Jamaicans don't speak a CREOLE THAT is very difficult for whites to understand, and that is NOT CONSIDERED BY PEOPLE IN THE FIELD TO BE THE SAME LANGUAGE.
Linguists are in agreement on the CREOLE languages of the Caribbean by the way.
Haitian Creole is not mutualltintelligible with French, and is considered its own language, while Jamaican English is mutually intelligible with conventional English.
Anyone who's fluent in English can figure out most of the differences in Jamaican English, therefore it's not really a distinct language in my opinion. I'm sure there's no consensus among linguists about this either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Jamaican patois is very different from Jamaican English.
Stop trying to make arguments on things you have no education or personal experience on. I doubt you even have a degree, while ESL and ELA instruction is what I do PROFESSIONALLY!
Just because you understood your Jamaican friends in NYC DOES NOT MEAN that many Jamaicans don't speak a CREOLE THAT is very difficult for whites to understand, and that is NOT CONSIDERED BY PEOPLE IN THE FIELD TO BE THE SAME LANGUAGE.
Linguists are in agreement on the CREOLE languages of the Caribbean by the way.
l1995 and you do have a point though. As a Jamaican, most of us just consider it a dialect and not a separate language. A well-known Jamaican poet and national figure, Dr. Louise Bennett-Coverley, was pushing for patois to be recognized as an official language of Jamaica, distinct from English. This never gained widespread support amongst the populace. Recently, several intellectuals at the University of West Indies (notably Dr. Carolyn Cooper) have renewed the push but without traction. I think it could be considered a language though but Jamaicans have more practical, pressing concerns such as our IMF debt, economy and one of the highest crime rate in the world.
I could never understand the connection between Haitian Creole and French as opposed to the connection between Jamaican patios and our British English in JA. I studied intensive French for 7 straight years in Jamaica, with 4 of those years being at the Intermediate to Advanced level (with oral and written exams) and I could never really understand Haitian Creole. On the other hand, spoken and written Jamaican patois has many similarities with British English that many Europeans, Japanese, Indians and other groups that visit or study the culture can quickly grasp it. Perhaps, this might have more to do with the spread of Jamaican culture worldwide and less with the similarity of the dialect to British English. Either way, it is the first that I have heard that there is widespread agreement amongst linguists that Jamaican patois is considered a language in itself.
l1995 and you do have a point though. As a Jamaican, most of us just consider it a dialect and not a separate language. A well-known Jamaican poet and national figure, Dr. Louise Bennett-Coverley, was pushing for patois to be recognized as an official language of Jamaica, distinct from English. This never gained widespread support amongst the populace. Recently, several intellectuals at the University of West Indies (notably Dr. Carolyn Cooper) have renewed the push but without traction. I think it could be considered a language though but Jamaicans have more practical, pressing concerns such as our IMF debt, economy and one of the highest crime rate in the world.
I could never understand the connection between Haitian Creole and French as opposed to the connection between Jamaican patios and our British English in JA. I studied intensive French for 7 straight years in Jamaica, with 4 of those years being at the Intermediate to Advanced level (with oral and written exams) and I could never really understand Haitian Creole. On the other hand, spoken and written Jamaican patois has many similarities with British English that many Europeans, Japanese, Indians and other groups that visit or study the culture can quickly grasp it. Perhaps, this might have more to do with the spread of Jamaican culture worldwide and less with the similarity of the dialect to British English. Either way, it is the first that I have heard that there is widespread agreement amongst linguists that Jamaican patois is considered a language in itself.
Jamaican Patois is actually an officially recognized language by the federal gov't. They have paid translators on retainer to assist in the translation of the language. Jamaican Patois speakers in a number of agencies are paid extra for speaking the language.
You actually get paid more the deeper your accent and the worse your dialect lol.
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