"I'm cutting you toxic people out of my life!" - can this be a copout? (sociopath, dysfunctional)

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

No blanket statements are ever correct, sometimes the claim is correct, sometimes the person doing the "severing of ties" is the one that is bat**** crazy.

My group of friends recently had this occur where someone cut themselves out of our life blaming us for all their problems. Reality is that they kinda went off the deep-end and they turned on some of us that had always had their back.

Hoping they pull out of it but my guess is that they are headed towards rock-bottom. Oh well, I have enough people in my life that need something from me and I just don't have any energy to try to force another one onto my back.

You make some very pertinent points. Thanks for that perspective.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by MurphyPl1

Why is it my responsibility to model mature behavior, or retrain them on how to be reasonable human beings? I have a very full life, with plenty of people who I love and respect and do the same for me. I don't have time, room or energy to deal with toxic relationships.

I agree with you. Life is short. You don't have time to waste energy trying to "model behavior" to people. The implication is that by modeling good behavior, you will encourage others to adopt such behavior. Nothing could be more naive. Some people are unwilling to change and there is nothing you can do to inspire or change them. You will just waste your time and energy on these people when you could have better spent that time on those who appreciate and seek your attention. I cut out toxic relationships from my life. I am much healthier and in a better state of mind as a result. Negative people spread negative energy. I am not dramatic. I don't have a dramatic breakup or fight. In most of these relationships, the other person doesn't know I cut them out. I am still civil with them but I don't engage them or waste my time talking to them.Even with toxic family, you can be in contact without being actively involved with them.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I agree with you. Life is short. You don't have time to waste energy trying to "model behavior" to people. The implication is that by modeling good behavior, you will encourage others to adopt such behavior. Nothing could be more naive.

Really? Isn't that one way we teach our children?

Also, in many cases, I think this approach is just flat out wrong. Some people DO respond well to boundaries or to healthy behavior. It seems to me that you're implying that any energy spent "modeling good behavior" is simply wasted energy. Sometimes it is - sometimes it isn't.

I personally think that a lot of the success or failure of this endeavor depends a LOT on the individuals' motives - ALL the individuals' motives. For instance, let's use my mother as an example: My mother's motives in her relationship with me are not nefarious. My mother is mentally ill and emotionally crippled and she's never dealt with either very real issue. But she doesn't hate me. She doesn't wish me harm. In fact, she loves me - as much as she can from her unfortunate position. I therefore don't have the same dismissive attitude toward her that I have toward my ex husband, who does not love me and who genuinely despises me and wishes me ill.

Some people are unwilling to change and there is nothing you can do to inspire or change them.

True. And others can and will change to some extent if we either inspire them, or frankly, threaten them with distance. Once again, their attitude toward our healthy boundaries depends largely upon their own motives and values. Some people really DON'T "know better" due to their own upbringing, mental illness, or personal traumas. They're not necessarily unteachable or unreachable.

You will just waste your time and energy on these people when you could have better spent that time on those who appreciate and seek your attention.

Some people are really jacked up - and may have frankly never had much of a chance, due to circumstances which were at one time beyond their control. Are you saying there's no hope for them?

Relationships are a give and take. They're not always all about affirmation and attention.

I cut out toxic relationships from my life. I am much healthier and in a better state of mind as a result. Negative people spread negative energy.

I guess it all boils down to what our definition of "toxic person" is - my position is that some people sometimes are a bit too free with that terminology and use it to justify boxing up and shuffling off relationships and people when it might behoove them to put a bit more effort into the relationship - and meanwhile address their OWN baggage and emotional issues. Not at all saying that this applies to you - but I've known people with HUGE personal and personality issues themselves who are very quick to slap that "TOXIC PERSON" label on anyone they can't get along with.

I am not dramatic. I don't have a dramatic breakup or fight. In most of these relationships, the other person doesn't know I cut them out. I am still civil with them but I don't engage them or waste my time talking to them.Even with toxic family, you can be in contact without being actively involved with them.

This is an enlightening section. Maybe we're not really even talking about the same thing. I agree with you in many ways when you put it like this - I totally agree that there are some people we just can't risk our emotions or waste our energy on, even immediate family. While I do think that out of personal integrity, we should at least have a sincere conversation with them about why we find relating to them so challenging (I'm talking about immediate family here, not just people in general that we find negative or difficult), I do agree that sometimes some people just don't listen and have no intention of giving us the respect of listening and considering altering their modus operandum. People like that - nyahhhh, I'm not spending great amounts of energy on either. But like you, I'll be polite around them - I'll just limit the time I'm around them.

I also totally agree about the lack of drama thing. I have never been one of those people who is fueled by drama - break up, make up, big fight, hate you, love you, roller coaster stuff does nothing to me except irritate me. I refuse to feed that tiger. Make up sex? LOL I don't even know what that is.

[Purplecow]

Originally Posted by Lilac110

Life is short. Too short for toxicity.

Just posting to say your writing is superb.

Pity and compassion are so ingrained in the worldviews of victims that to craft arguments in support of indefinite pity and compassion--pity without boundaries, compassion that may pull one into a vortex--is dangerous. In the end, almost any person who bothers posting on threads such as these or even reading them will have poured decades of loving attention on an abuser. I don't think abusers spend time reading threads about suffering.

[Anikalana]

Originally Posted by Lilac110

It was a disgusting display of both schadenfreude and martyrdom, and I don't know where I got the strength other than pure outrage at her audacity, but I called her out on her rotten behavior and haven't spoken with her since. I can honestly say that I do not miss dealing with her, and removing her from my life was an act of self-defense and survival. It freed up time in my life and room in my heart to talk to friends, go visit them, have them visit me, etc., and heal. Clearing out her negativity made room for their love and positivity, without which I would not have been able to turn everything around.

Life is short. Too short for toxicity.

"Schadenfreude and martyrdom" - how perfectly this describes the behavior of several of my family members! While I haven't completely cut these people out of my life, I have severely limited my contact with them. I decided long ago that I didn't need their particular brand of toxicity in my life, and I've been so much happier since I quit talking to them on any kind of a regular basis. I can only take them in very small doses, with long, healing intervals of time in between. I simply do not have the time or energy for manipulative, game-playing, ****-stirring drama queens. People who behave this way should not be surprised when even their own family members cut them off.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by NewNorthMainer

Just posting to say your writing is superb.

Pity and compassion are so ingrained in the worldviews of victims that to craft arguments in support of indefinite pity and compassion--pity without boundaries, compassion that may pull one into a vortex--is dangerous. In the end, almost any person who bothers posting on threads such as these or even reading them will have poured decades of loving attention on an abuser. I don't think abusers spend time reading threads about suffering.

I agree with you that Lilac's writing is superb. I agree with a lot (not all but a lot) of what she posts on various topics, including this one.

I have a question for you though. Are you saying or implying that my position on this topic is coming from the perspective of a victim? Are you implying that I am espousing "pity without boundaries," or "compassion that may pull one into a vortex?" Or are your comments just general in nature?

I think the statement that most concerns me in your post is "any person who bothers posting on threads such as these or even reading them will have poured decades of loving attention on an abuser." Would you be included in that population? Are you including Lilac in that population?

Let's go a step further - let's talk about suffering. It's human nature to try to avoid suffering. The avoidance of suffering ties directly into our survival instinct. I'm all for avoiding suffering! That being said, I've been around long enough to realize that life in this world will hold some suffering. Maintaining meaningful, long term relationships will involve some sacrifice, some discomfort, some anger and disappointment, some forgiveness, some self sacrifice. Some people may call that suffering. I think that in any relationship, there's a tipping point - and to clarify, as I said in the OP and throughout the thread, I am NOT condoning tolerating abuse, or even ongoing disrespect.

I insist in fact on establishing and maintaining parameters, and enforcing clear and consistent ramifications when someone disregards those parameters. In some cases, the ramification IS "cutting them out of my life." That's not always a wrong response and I've never claimed that it was. But sometimes the ramification is less severe than that. It's "Ok, we're leaving now," or "Ok, get out of my house," or it's screening calls or curtailing visits or withholding information or any other number of tactics to re establish those boundaries.

These ramifications have to be consistent, and they're harder to maintain than simply "cutting someone out of one's life." My point though is that sometimes the relationship is worth that extra trouble and therefore it's an option to consider.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by Anikalana

"Schadenfreude and martyrdom" - how perfectly this describes the behavior of several of my family members! While I haven't completely cut these people out of my life, I have severely limited my contact with them. I decided long ago that I didn't need their particular brand of toxicity in my life, and I've been so much happier since I quit talking to them on any kind of a regular basis. I can only take them in very small doses, with long, healing intervals of time in between. I simply do not have the time or energy for manipulative, game-playing, ****-stirring drama queens. People who behave this way should not be surprised when even their own family members cut them off.

I agree with this completely. In fact, for years - DECADES - I very much limited my interactions with my brother. I did not cut him off completely though, and I'm glad I didn't, since he has now received effective treatment for his mental illness and he NEEDS the support of his family. Due to the very effective meds and ongoing counseling, he amazingly understands and respects boundaries now and we're able to have a decent relationship that we're in the process of rebuilding.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Really? Isn't that one way we teach our children?

No, I don't teach my children that. I teach my children to be respectful but I also teach them to be strong and not to be taken advantage of or waste their time on toxic friends or people. That will just negatively impact their life and I care about them too much to allow that to happen.

Also, in many cases, I think this approach is just flat out wrong. Some people DO respond well to boundaries or to healthy behavior. It seems to me that you're implying that any energy spent "modeling good behavior" is simply wasted energy. Sometimes it is - sometimes it isn't.

Sorry, not they don't. All you are doing is wasting your time. Instead, it's a selfish approach You are trying to reform someone when in reality a lot of other people need your attention and are asking for your attention. And you end up ignoring those people which is much more harmful.

In fact, she loves me - as much as she can from her unfortunate position. I therefore don't have the same dismissive attitude toward her that I have toward my ex husband, who does not love me and who genuinely despises me and wishes me ill.

I don't consider that toxic. You two are different but toxic is something else.

Relationships are a give and take. They're not always all about affirmation and attention.

It's also your responsibility to choose good relationships. I see this all the time. There are a lot of tragedies when good people make bad choices and surround themselves with toxic people which ultimately bring them down. The truth is those good people were responsible for making bad choices.

Not at all saying that this applies to you - but I've known people with HUGE personal and personality issues themselves who are very quick to slap that "TOXIC PERSON" label on anyone they can't get along with.

I don't know how old you are but I'm in my 50's. I used to be like you until I got burned off and wise enough to recognize that you are actually harming yourself by maintaining toxic relationships. It's just foolish and naive. You will be much happier by eliminating toxic people from your life and surrounding yourself with positive inspirational people. These people will motivate you to make the world a better place and make you your best person possible. But unfortunately people are still blind to your naive philosophy and all they end up doing is becoming increasingly unhappy while hurting their lives and the people they love because they are so concerned with reforming and helping people that can't change.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

No, I don't teach my children that. I teach my children to be respectful but I also teach them to be strong and not to be taken advantage of or waste their time on toxic friends or people. That will just negatively impact their life and I care about them too much to allow that to happen.

Sigh. That's not what we were discussing. You said that modeling good behavior isn't your responsibility because it doesn't work as a teaching tool. I disagreed and said that one of the ways we train up children is to model good behavior.

I totally agree that we need to teach our children to be strong and not to be taken advantage of. In other words, we have to teach our children how to establish and maintain healthy personal boundaries. One of the ways we teach them this is by DOING IT OURSELVES. In other words, "modeling good behavior." That's what I was discussing.

When I show my mother appropriate love and attention, my kids see me do it. When I call her hand on her dysfunctional behavior and refuse to cater to it, my kids see me do that too. I definitely have my line in the sand with my mother, and my brother, and in fact ANYONE - and I maintain that line. I am not espousing "being taken advantage of" or "wasting time on toxic friends or people."

Sorry, not they don't. All you are doing is wasting your time. Instead, it's a selfish approach You are trying to reform someone when in reality a lot of other people need your attention and are asking for your attention. And you end up ignoring those people which is much more harmful.

Wow, I totally disagree with this statement. First of all, I'm not "trying to reform" anyone. I have made my boundaries clear and it's THEIR CHOICE whether or not they respect those boundaries. If they choose not to, there are ramifications. I will definitely call their hand on it and confront them. I may leave, or tell them to leave. I may sever contact with them until they change a certain behavior, or apologize or whatever is appropriate in that situation.

And thanks for your concern, but I am not doing any of this at the expense of people who need my attention. I don't allow truly toxic people to sap my energy or use up all my attention. That's exactly WHY I establish boundaries and hold them to those boundaries.

I don't consider that toxic. You two are different but toxic is something else.

Interesting perspective.

My mother is bipolar and not medicated. In the past she has been absolutely abusive to me and to my father. In other words, she was "toxic" (I consider abusive people to fall under that category).

Now she is not abusive. My father and I do not allow her to be abusive. And she is no longer a toxic person either - and she's still a part of our lives. How did this happen? Because we were able to establish boundaries and hold her to them. So now - voila - she's not a "toxic person!"

This is ENTIRELY my point! Sometimes people are quick to label people as "toxic" and walk away from the relationship, when it could possibly be salvaged.

It's also your responsibility to choose good relationships. I see this all the time. There are a lot of tragedies when good people make bad choices and surround themselves with toxic people which ultimately bring them down. The truth is those good people were responsible for making bad choices.

I agree with this. But there's more to this story than just this simplistic statement. For instance, we can't choose who our mother is, or who our brother is. Often we can't choose our boss, or our coworkers, or our professors, or our team mates, or our next door neighbors. In other words, sometimes people are in our lives and they are disrespectful of our personal boundaries, and we may have to deal with that issue and the answer may not be as simple as "cutting them out of our lives." My point is that sometimes there are other alternatives, but some people are quick to slap the label, "Toxic person" on difficult people and use that as a justification for walking away entirely from a relationship rather than dealing with it in a way that can include that person (within healthy boundaries!) in their life.

I don't know how old you are but I'm in my 50's. I used to be like you until I got burned off and wise enough to recognize that you are actually harming yourself by maintaining toxic relationships. It's just foolish and naive.

I'm 52, with four kids and seven grandkids, a successful career, and a loving and healthy marriage to a man who respects me and treats me wonderfully.

Let me ask you something - what do you mean by "I used to be like you?" What is "like me" in your opinion? Do you think I am a doormat, or that I tolerate abuse? Do you think I surround myself with toxic relationships? What is your perception of me and what do you base that on?

I am far from foolish and naive, though I definitely have my faults. In fact, I'm pretty up to speed on the whole "boundaries" thing - so much so that I teach a class on it to disadvantaged women as part of my volunteer work with an organization that helps disadvantaged women transition from low paying, low skilled jobs to white collar, professional jobs. I'm not trying to brag - I'm just trying to clear up what seems to be a misconception on your part.

You will be much happier by eliminating toxic people from your life and surrounding yourself with positive inspirational people.

I agree with this to some extent. But like I've said repeatedly, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." Using this "philosophy" without balancing it with humility and compassion can create a mindset where we have a very low tolerance for others and judge relationships more by "what's in it for me," than by "treating others as we want to be treated." There's a lot more to meaningful relationships than simply what the other person can do for us.

These people will motivate you to make the world a better place and make you your best person possible.

I totally believe that we should make plenty of room in our lives for mentors, for inspirational people, for people who inspire us to be the best we can be, for people who believe in the best we have inside us. But I think that strong people also have room in their lives to help OTHERS be the best they can be, to be inspirational, to be mentors. Sometimes this involves some self sacrifice, or some toleration of weaker, or less positive, or dysfunctional people. I'm not saying SURROUND ourselves with such people, of course. I'm saying though, that some relationships require a bit more give than take at times - and we don't have to run from those - we just have to find and maintain that balance and those boundaries.

I used to be a pushover - I couldn't say "no," and I was always over extended, listening to people's problems, dealing with people who seemed to "need me so." What they were actually doing was using the heck out of me. People who are "energy suckers" gravitate to those with lots of energy to spare. They're predators, actually. Also, people are generally selfish and will take as much as we'll give -at least generally speaking. No longer. When I volunteer, I lay out my parameters and that's it. In my friendships, I establish boundaries - depending on the person or the situation, that may be as simple as "no phone calls after 8 pm" or as complex as "I know you're going through a difficult time and need support so you can stay here for two days - but in two days you're leaving." Then I stick with it.

My gosh, I even made my own son stay at the SALVATION ARMY once rather than coming back home, because he refused to abide by my house rules! So, please don't worry about me - I understand parameters and boundaries.

But unfortunately people are still blind to your naive philosophy and all they end up doing is becoming increasingly unhappy while hurting their lives and the people they love because they are so concerned with reforming and helping people that can't change.

No offense, but CLEARLY you misunderstand my philosophy on life. Hopefully, I've been able to clear some of this misunderstanding up.

You know what - people CAN change. But we are not responsible for them changing. We can only change ourselves, because we're only responsible for our own actions. The amazing thing is, that when we reset our defaults and make changes in OUR expectations and OUR values, sometimes (and this is the really cool part!) people respond positively to those changes and adjust THEIR defaults!

I've raised five teenagers (four of my own and my stepson). Believe me, every single one of them tested those boundaries, and in some cases, completely trampled those boundaries. I could have allowed them to run all over me and the household, and left to their own devises, they may have done just that. But my husband and I didn't do that. We practiced tough love with them, and lo and behold, they adjusted their behaviors accordingly! In other words, "it worked." Tough love works sometimes. Now - that doesn't mean that "we reformed anyone." I personally can't reform anyone. That's completely up to them. All I can do is say, "These are my boundaries," and they can either respect those or there will be ramifications - but that's THEIR choice.

The interesting thing is, this can work with adults as well as kids or teens. Adults are more challenging - I freely admit this. But it CAN work sometimes. I've seen it work. I've lived it. That's not naivete. That's just the truth.

I never said it was easy. But the best things in life are never easy.

[HisTime2010]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Yes, of course. But I think some relationships are worth the effort. Even if a person doesn't respond as we'd like, we know we did what we could. This only works, by the way, if we're responding to them from a healthy place ourselves. It does no good to fight dysfunction with more dysfunction and sometimes that's the legacy they've left us with .

Gotta clear out the baggage first and some people aren't willing or able to do that. We have to be prepared to be brutally honest with ourselves and some people just cannot or will not go there.

My mother for instance. HER mother was mentally ill. I mean it - paranoid schizophrenic. She was not a good mother, not by a long shot. People in the family know that - my mother's other sisters know that, my cousins know that, my father knows that. My mother will not admit that or confront it, nor will she address her own mental illness or emotional damage, and therefore she will not treat her mental illness, and this has crippled her and wrecked relationships all through her life. It's very sad.

And we can fall into the same dysfunction if we don't address our own weaknesses and vulnerabilities and faults within dysfunctional relationships. Even the most abused aduilt is getting SOMETHING out of a relationship - they aren't simply a sacrificial lamb. We have to look at our part in the play so to speak, and sometimes it's not pretty.

And then some people are so awful we don't really owe them the effort. It's just good to be SURE of that before we slap the label "Toxic Person" on them and boot them from our lives, no matter how many self help books or strangers on the internet tell us it's the right thing to do.

Sometimes it is - and sometimes it's not.

And like I said earlier, I have soundly booted two people completely out of my life over the years. And I've distanced myself from others because of their lack of respect. I'm not saying it's never appropriate to do so.

It really comes down to choices. Everybody has a choice, good bad or indifferent and they are entitled to choose what they see best for themselves. If they feel "booting" the person is best for their mental and emotional health, than regardless what others think or believe that is the best decision for them.