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1. If you were spanked as a kid, do you believe that it was effective?
2. As a parent now, do you spank or not?
Apparently non-spankers keep trying to lecture people on why spanking is horrible. I think it works, but that is my opinion. Lets discuss. Enjoy.
P.S. Lets make sure we stay on topic, I know there will be people who will start posting 10,000 studies on why spanking is worse than murder and this thread will eventually get hijacked.
I keep saying it to make a point, non-spankers can't accept that spanking can be an affective form of discipline. You and I can argue for hours on this point, but neither of us will change our minds.
Ok first, will you accept that I don't equate discipline and punishment? That I think there are many factors to an effective right and wrong teaching plan that has NOTHING to do with discipline? Can I feel at least that heard?
We have two rather different reasons for this failure to change minds. I am very open to punishment including spanking if I am given any reasonable idea of why it is a good tool in the tool box. You may recall that it WAS in my tool box once upon a time. I have no reason to avoid it. I was spanked. My father spanked me, and I consider him to be the most intuitively positive disciplinarian there is. So I am hardly close minded to the idea. But all we hear from spanking advocates is
- I turned out ok (as if ok is the best we can shoot for)
- It is not abuse (of course it is not abuse, as if failure to abuse is the best we can shoot for)
- They need consequences (which I agree with 200% - thankfully the disagreeable behavior pretty much always comes with its own consequence that more directly teaches the lesson better than any arbitrary punishment ever could)
I think the reason people hold so tenuously to spanking in the face of pretty decent reason to look into something else is
- laziness - it requires thought, reading, looking at other possible thoughts with an open mind. It is easier to just hit (yes hit. Calling it by another name does not make it something else. Calling a skunk cabbage rose does not make it so.) when they "misbehave" because it is hard to try and understand what the heck is really going on.
- religious leaders advocate it and appeal to the god as parent model that the less reasoned among us fall for hook line and sinker. One author will go so far as to tell you what dimension of plumbing to use based on age of the child and to make sure you beat the child until all signs of resistance is gone and full submission is achieved. If this is you, then help yourself to your spanking because you are lost anyway.
- since people are so busy defending spanking against abuse charges (which are the least compelling of all spanking arguments) they fear that if they let the slightest crack of possibility that spanking might be replaced by something better, then they fear that they have to admit that they are abusing their children or that they were abused as children.
1. If you were spanked as a kid, do you believe that it was effective?
Yes I was spanked as a kid. I am not sure what it was intended to be effective at doing. I never changed one decision based on the reality that I might or might not get spanked. The more effective techniques to teach me how to do what was expected was:
- speaking to me and explaining what was going on. Believe it or not kids don't always get it.
- being allowed to take responsibility for my actions and suffer the natural consequences of my actions.
- learning that part of the consequence of an action was remedy and amends and being taught how to do it. How to be genuinely and sincerely sorry. How to make up for an action.
- understanding that misbehavior was not always willful, usually wasn't but was the result of stupid judgement of an inexperienced person and using that inexperience to teach valuable lessons.
- being required to chip in to the household and recognize my responsibility to the whole.
The list goes on. Someone should write a book or three. Oh wait! They did! I link to them above in another thread.
Quote:
2. As a parent now, do you spank or not?
Apparently non-spankers keep trying to lecture people on why spanking is horrible. I think it works, but that is my opinion. Lets discuss. Enjoy.
So when you share your ideas, it is idea sharing? When others do it, it is lecturing? How does that work? Defensive much?
P.S. Lets make sure we stay on topic, I know there will be people who will start posting 10,000 studies on why spanking is worse than murder and this thread will eventually get hijacked.[/quote]
Well if we are talking about spanking being effective, if it were worse than murder, it is hardly effective at anything useful to be effective at. So that would seem to be on topic to me.
Ok first, will you accept that I don't equate discipline and punishment? That I think there are many factors to an effective right and wrong teaching plan that has NOTHING to do with discipline? Can I feel at least that heard?
We have two rather different reasons for this failure to change minds. I am very open to punishment including spanking if I am given any reasonable idea of why it is a good tool in the tool box. You may recall that it WAS in my tool box once upon a time. I have no reason to avoid it. I was spanked. My father spanked me, and I consider him to be the most intuitively positive disciplinarian there is. So I am hardly close minded to the idea. But all we hear from spanking advocates is
- I turned out ok (as if ok is the best we can shoot for)
- It is not abuse (of course it is not abuse, as if failure to abuse is the best we can shoot for)
- They need consequences (which I agree with 200% - thankfully the disagreeable behavior pretty much always comes with its own consequence that more directly teaches the lesson better than any arbitrary punishment ever could)
I think the reason people hold so tenuously to spanking in the face of pretty decent reason to look into something else is
- laziness - it requires thought, reading, looking at other possible thoughts with an open mind. It is easier to just hit (yes hit. Calling it by another name does not make it something else. Calling a skunk cabbage rose does not make it so.) when they "misbehave" because it is hard to try and understand what the heck is really going on.
- religious leaders advocate it and appeal to the god as parent model that the less reasoned among us fall for hook line and sinker. One author will go so far as to tell you what dimension of plumbing to use based on age of the child and to make sure you beat the child until all signs of resistance is gone and full submission is achieved. If this is you, then help yourself to your spanking because you are lost anyway.
- since people are so busy defending spanking against abuse charges (which are the least compelling of all spanking arguments) they fear that if they let the slightest crack of possibility that spanking might be replaced by something better, then they fear that they have to admit that they are abusing their children or that they were abused as children.
That my friend is why this argument will never get anywhere. I turned out great, and so did my parents. I know other people who turned out great and they were spanked. You do not want to accept that this is enough of a reason. You seem to be looking for some in depth reason. We spanking advocates don't need studies, books, or somebody from academia to tell us how to discipline kids. My parents never worried about abuse charges, or religion, or were lazy. I can guarantee you, I never worry about it being abuse, I know where to stop.
My parents didn't spank. We didn't spank. Not spanking definitely worked.
Glazed eyed stares ensue when you try to converse about what it means to "work", what it means to be "effective". Effective at achieving WHAT? Obedience? Of COURSE spanking is going to be effective at that. Scare 'em into doing what you want.
What happens when you aren't looking? Do they have any reason to choose right over wrong?
That my friend is why this argument will never get anywhere. I turned out great, and so did my parents. I know other people who turned out great and they were spanked. You do not want to accept that this is enough of a reason. You seem to be looking for some in depth reason. We spanking advocates don't need studies, books, or somebody from academia to tell us how to discipline kids.
Ah. Case rests. Lazy. Because thinking HURTS so.
If I were to say correlation is not causation, would you have any idea what I was talking about?
Yes, I was spanked. Must have worked as I am not a criminal, druggie, ect. I have no emotional baggage from being spanked as a child and I never hated my parents for spanking me. When I did what I did to deserve the spanking, I already knew at the time if I was going to be caught that I had it coming to me. Also was spanked with a switch, that I had to pick myself, by my grandmother, when I was 12, with my friend present..lol. I got over it rather quickly. Crap happens
We have only spanked our son twice, but we also do time outs, sent to bed early, removal of toys, trying to talk out situation, ect. Different situations require different methods He is a happy child who is excelling in school, is well liked by his peers and school staff and does well in karate.
Why did you quote me? I said NOT spanking definitely worked.
Not every quote is an argument! I was extrapolating on what you said. I was keyed into the word "worked". Like dot dot dot and furthermore.
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