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I've never ridden the light rail and if I worked in the downtown/Central Corridor, I would most likely ride the Rapid/Express bus from the Metro Center Park & Ride, it's one of many such locations where commuters can park their vehicles and ride to downtown, it's much faster than the light rail, and it's one of the items (alternatives to light rail) mentioned in Prop 105 that will help and it can easily be improved because it's much cheaper than the light rail.
I realize you've already made up your mind and cast your ballot, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this, I'll make one point: Don't fall for the the claim that passage of Proposition 105 will improve bus service. It's a bait and switch. Here's why:
1) Bus service already receives the largest share of Phoenix transportation funding -- more than light rail, and more ambitious bus rapid transit projects are already in the planning stages.
2) Since voters approved Proposition 104 in 2015, bus service has been expanded with new routes, later hours, and increased frequency. It's a myth that light rail has been built at the expense of buses. In reality, the two modes have both grown together as part of a coordinated multimodal transit network.
3) If you look at the comments from Proposition 105's most ardent supporters on Building a Better Phoenix's Facebook page, you'll see the hackneyed complaint that existing buses are mostly empty. Those claims are usually false, but they strongly suggest that Building a Better Phoenix is not really about substituting buses for trains. Instead, it's purely a movement against public transit.
For the most part, the poor planning by the city has caused more problems with the light rail than it solved. You'd have to be a resident in one of the neighborhoods near the light rail to understand where I'm coming from.
I haven't had time to read the novels that have been written in this thread, but could you type a couple of sentences that show what you mean by poor planning. I am a resident in one of the neighborhoods near the light rail and it is one of the reasons I moved here.
I wouldn’t engage with Kid Ashbury anymore. They must’ve gotten lost looking for Reddit. Imagine unironically trolling City-Data in your free time.
Imagine begging for validation from strangers like this. ^ You're definitely a redditor with cringeposts like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Phx Native
everywhere the light rail goes, the local businesses suffer, look at Camelback rd, large sections were destroyed by the light rail, they are nothing more than parking lots now, places that used to be easy to get to are much more difficult to get to, not being able to make left turns only at certain areas and the loss of travel lanes mean auto traffic is heavier. There are parts of downtown where it might make sense to have something like light rail, but for no, it is a billion dollar waste of money.
Exactly this ^
The light rail is a "feel good" project for bureaucrats who refuse to admit the line expansion has brought a lot of negatives along with the few positives.
As I clearly stated before, I'm very much mixed about light rail expansion. Prop. 105 has good intentions to put street maintenance ahead of light rail, and those of us who drive on the streets of Phoenix know what I mean when I say a lot of the streets are in pretty bad shape. I would easily vote for 105 just on the grounds of setting priorities straight. What I have against 105 is it goes too far in completely halting any kind of future rail projects, including some that I would favor (Washington Street to the Capitol). The fact that it was spearheaded by a small group of NIMBYs in south Phoenix doesn't sit well with me at all.
Since the majority of Phoenix voters said yes to previous light rail projects, I think the smarter thing to do would be to go back to the drawing board and evaluate the proposed routes of future lines. The initial line currently in place has been successful for the most part ... however, I highly question the need to run more lines to suburban areas, and especially shopping malls which are pretty much being vacated. For example: the demand for light rail would be much lower in car centric areas like PV Village.
It has also been said that Phoenix is not fit for light rail because of its sprawl, but I disagree. Other large western cities which are also very sprawling have light rail, and seem to be doing quite well. Those other cities are: Dallas, Houston, San Diego, San Jose, and Denver. Even a sprawling mid sized area like Salt Lake City has light rail, and has expanded the system. I agree that Phoenix & those other cities comprise mostly of motorists, but it's always good to have the added option of mass transit for those who either don't have cars, or for those who do have cars but would like other means of transportation besides driving. The few times I've ridden Phoenix's light rail, it actually wasn't bad at all. Didn't encounter any derelicts, panhandlers, or the like.
I'm afraid you misinterpreted what I mentioned previously, I never blamed the light rail for what you referred to as "mental health/illness and homeless", and I might add drug addicts that seem to be causing problems on the light rail. I blamed the city of Phoenix for their poor planning and lack of action in many ways to keep the homeless population under control and keep those individuals away from the light rail and in neighborhoods, and to be honest, for the most part it's a complex problem that cannot be solved by the city alone. That's an entirely different topic.
Yes, we've seen an increase in the homeless who roam around our neighborhood and this is due to the close proximity of the light rail. But, it's already in place and the best we can do is take proper action to keep such individuals away from the neighborhood, which is something all of us are doing currently to keep the homeless away from the neighborhood. And let's face it, you won't see any or too many of those people in any neighborhoods that are further away from a light rail line.
I am a homeowner and live less than 2 blocks from 19th and Dunlap...you and I are basically neighbors. I shop at the Sprouts on 19th and Northern, I get my hair cut in the Albertson's plaza (yes, Great Clips...don't judge) and I get coffee from the Dunkin Donuts on Northern almost every day. Light rail was one of the positives for me when choosing where to buy a house 4 1/2 years ago. I probably don't use it more than once a month on average since I drive most places, but I like having an option to go downtown if I want to have a few drinks and don't want to pay for an Uber. I see many of the same issues you call out with respect to the homeless and drug addicts in the area, but I disagree that these are reasons to stop expansion of public transportation options like light rail.
Light rail isn't perfect. It's slow since it's at street level and the fact that there is only one line (albeit one that is extremely long from end to end) limits the amount of people who have access to it as a reasonable transportation solution. And the bus system in Phoenix sucks compared to most other cities this size, which means a bus/train combo to get to where you need to go can easily be a 2-hour proposition for many people. But part of a city's total package when it comes to attracting jobs, commerce, and skilled residents includes investing in public transit infrastructure. While it's not the end-all-be-all, cities that fail to recognize this will struggle to economically keep up with the pack in the 21st century.
The bigger issue is what you alluded to Mike, in that there is a problem with the number of mentally ill, homeless, and drug addicts who spend their time in and around the neighborhood. This was an issue before the light rail extension was complete, and it's still an issue now. The 19th/Dunlap corner itself is probably hotter than it used to be, but I haven't seen any change in the surrounding blocks compared to before the extension opened. Even then, I've chased a handful of tweakers off my block from time to time, but there's only so much good that will do if the businesses and police in the area don't do the same thing. What you allow, you encourage. I blame the Circle K on 19th and Dunlap for allowing a dozen drug addicts at a time to hang out on their property all day. I blame the owners and property managers of some of the apartment buildings along 19th for allowing homeless folks to set up camp in a corner of their parking lots. I blame the city and the police for allowing junkies to sleep it off on the train, at the stations, or at the bus stops across the street. And I blame Valley Metro for any failures to properly police the light rail trains themselves. I actually think they've done a better job with the latter recently...I can count on one hand the number of times someone checked my ticket the first couple years the extension was open, whereas over the last year or so I see tickets getting checked at least once or twice on each ride.
There are a lot of people in this thread mistaking correlation for causation, and ultimately none of the problems being discussed above would be fixed by passing Prop 105. For each area with light rail like the 19th Ave corridor that struggles with homeless/drug issues, I can point to a dozen other areas of the valley without light rail that have the same problems. Neighborhoods that do a good job of keeping these problems in check are those that have a significant percentage of residents engaged in the community, higher degrees of home ownership (resident investment locally), and businesses that operate as stakeholders/partners in the neighborhood instead of just occupying space in it. Light rail is not the cause of problems when a neighborhood falls short in any of those areas even though in Phoenix it's frequently one of the first things people tend to blame.
Here's one of the flyers I received about a month ago that advocated approval of Prop 105. I have a couple more reasons to approve it because I live close to the 19th Ave & Dunlap section of the light rail.
I am a homeowner and live less than 2 blocks from 19th and Dunlap...you and I are basically neighbors. I shop at the Sprouts on 19th and Northern, I get my hair cut in the Albertson's plaza (yes, Great Clips...don't judge) and I get coffee from the Dunkin Donuts on Northern almost every day. Light rail was one of the positives for me when choosing where to buy a house 4 1/2 years ago. I probably don't use it more than once a month on average since I drive most places, but I like having an option to go downtown if I want to have a few drinks and don't want to pay for an Uber. I see many of the same issues you call out with respect to the homeless and drug addicts in the area, but I disagree that these are reasons to stop expansion of public transportation options like light rail.
Light rail isn't perfect. It's slow since it's at street level and the fact that there is only one line (albeit one that is extremely long from end to end) limits the amount of people who have access to it as a reasonable transportation solution. And the bus system in Phoenix sucks compared to most other cities this size, which means a bus/train combo to get to where you need to go can easily be a 2-hour proposition for many people. But part of a city's total package when it comes to attracting jobs, commerce, and skilled residents includes investing in public transit infrastructure. While it's not the end-all-be-all, cities that fail to recognize this will struggle to economically keep up with the pack in the 21st century.
The bigger issue is what you alluded to Mike, in that there is a problem with the number of mentally ill, homeless, and drug addicts who spend their time in and around the neighborhood. This was an issue before the light rail extension was complete, and it's still an issue now. The 19th/Dunlap corner itself is probably hotter than it used to be, but I haven't seen any change in the surrounding blocks compared to before the extension opened. Even then, I've chased a handful of tweakers off my block from time to time, but there's only so much good that will do if the businesses and police in the area don't do the same thing. What you allow, you encourage. I blame the Circle K on 19th and Dunlap for allowing a dozen drug addicts at a time to hang out on their property all day. I blame the owners and property managers of some of the apartment buildings along 19th for allowing homeless folks to set up camp in a corner of their parking lots. I blame the city and the police for allowing junkies to sleep it off on the train, at the stations, or at the bus stops across the street. And I blame Valley Metro for any failures to properly police the light rail trains themselves. I actually think they've done a better job with the latter recently...I can count on one hand the number of times someone checked my ticket the first couple years the extension was open, whereas over the last year or so I see tickets getting checked at least once or twice on each ride.
There are a lot of people in this thread mistaking correlation for causation, and ultimately none of the problems being discussed above would be fixed by passing Prop 105. For each area with light rail like the 19th Ave corridor that struggles with homeless/drug issues, I can point to a dozen other areas of the valley without light rail that have the same problems. Neighborhoods that do a good job of keeping these problems in check are those that have a significant percentage of residents engaged in the community, higher degrees of home ownership (resident investment locally), and businesses that operate as stakeholders/partners in the neighborhood instead of just occupying space in it. Light rail is not the cause of problems when a neighborhood falls short in any of those areas even though in Phoenix it's frequently one of the first things people tend to blame.
I agree with you, the problems with the homeless and drug addicts has been around long before the light rail came into place, the difference now is it has become more apparent over the past 3-4 years and as I mentioned before, a lot of them want to stay close to the light rail so they can use it. We see them at the Alicia Park that stretches between Alice & Butler and between 19th Ave & 20th Dr. A lot of us in the neighborhood are doing everything we can to keep those individuals out because they have caused problems. Many of us will stand outside as they walk by to let them know that they're not welcome in the neighborhood. The Richard E. Miller elementary school is on 19th Ave & Alice and that's another reason we do our best to keep individuals out. The neighborhood I live in was constructed in 1998 and 1999 and we never had any problems with the homeless up until the light rail came in a little over 3 years ago.
I don't put 100% of the blame on the light rail, there are other factors to blame, besides the ones you mentioned, such as the Circle K at 19th Ave & Dunlap. I've been at that location a couple of times in the past year and I've been approached by those individuals asking me to help them with "a couple of bucks for the bus", it's the same line I've heard repeatedly and I refused to give them money when they asked for it, yet there are naive people out there that will believe them and hand the cash out to them, those people who think they're doing the homeless a favor certainly need to be informed. I've talked to those people after they handed money to vagrants, at that Circle K you mentioned as well as other locations. Not too long ago I saw a couple in a car handing money out to an able-bodied young homeless individual at one of the lights on I-17 & Dunlap, I chased them down and stopped them at 21st Ave & Dunlap and I told them that they're not helping those people any favors because they'll most likely use the funds to buy alcohol or drugs. There are legitimate organizations that will help them find jobs and help treat the root cause(s) of their problems. One main problem is many of those vagrants will not seek the help that's available but rely on those who help them with cash.
I know this is outside of the main topic of the thread, but I want to state a point that I think a lot of us will agree on, many of those able-bodied homeless are out there holding signs for one reason, MONEY and most of them will use it for illegitimate purposes, and some may use it to ride the light rail or other forms of public transit to go to different locations. The City of Phoenix and public transit have no reasons to keep such riders off as long as they pay the required fares.
On a cold Thanksgiving Eve in November 1989, when I lived in an apartment complex at 25th Ave north of Greenway Rd, I stopped at the Circle K that was at the northwest corner of 19th Ave & Greenway (a year before the Greenway Parkway opened), and I remember this clearly because there was a homeless guy standing outside of the store. When I walked out to my car he asked me to help him with money for food, so I felt sorry for him and I gave him a small amount of change. About an hour later, I drove back to that same store for something else and I saw that same guy walking out with beer. So you can see where I'm coming from, a lot of them are in the situations they're in for various reasons that we can't do anything about, and in most cases they take advantage of people's kindness.
If the city of Phoenix wants to do something about the vagrants on the light rail they should discourage people from giving them money and have some way to make sure nobody gets on the light rail without a pass or a ticket.
If the city of Phoenix wants to do something about the vagrants on the light rail they should discourage people from giving them money and have some way to make sure nobody gets on the light rail without a pass or a ticket.
First I hear the argument that something should be done about people who are riding the train and not paying. Now you want something to be done about people who ARE paying? And they do have a way to make sure nobody gets on without a ticket, the fare inspectors that I see more than half of times that I take the train.
I haven't had time to read the novels that have been written in this thread, but could you type a couple of sentences that show what you mean by poor planning. I am a resident in one of the neighborhoods near the light rail and it is one of the reasons I moved here.
This bothers many motorists if you drive on 19th Ave and you have to make a left turn onto one of the smaller streets, like Las Palmaritas, or Alice, many of those intersections didn't have traffic lights before the light rail, but now they've added the lights and left turn arrows, and at times motorists will sit and wait longer than necessary for those arrows to turn green and there's no traffic going in the opposite directions. I avoid driving on 19th Ave as much as possible and whenever I do, I will make left turns on red turn arrows when it's safe to do so because I refuse to sit and wait for a turn arrow for no reason, and I've seen other motorists do the same. The city could have planned this better and put the flashing yellow arrows at many such intersections.
I'll illustrate another example of poor planning with a Google Map screenshot, let's say you're driving in the northbound lanes of 19th Ave and you live in the apartment complex that appears in the middle left of the image, there is no longer a direct access to the entrances of that complex due to the high curb that encloses the rail lines, so motorists would have to drive further north to the next light at Alice, make a u-turn then drive south to turn into that complex. The same scenario is repeated along the entire light rail route on 9th Ave and it made turning left more difficult, simply put, it only created hindrances for drivers.
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